"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

[Keith]

As the great Referendum happens in September this year and it is fast approaching (just 8 months to go) I think it is about time the Paddock "Brains Trust" gave forth on the issue. There are quite a few Scots amongst us but I don't know how many of them are Brits :laugh:

The American contingent might find this interesting, as, in any discussion, the 'mysterious' differences between The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Britain, England & Scotland might become apparent.

What we don't know, is what happens to the moniker (UK) should the Scottish vote be 'Yes,' so it's an interesting and quite momentous time.

I quite expect Americans and Australians, or indeed for that matter any former 'colonists' to vote for a YES because that is their instinctive nature concerning all things English, and I believe a portion of the Scottish vote may be swayed more by Mel Gibson, but in truth, it is a far more complex issue. Whichever way it goes, many people will be unhappy.

Me? I would prefer to maintain the Union as the financial model (of Scottish Independence) doesn't work for me, but I will not be affected one way or another so I am ambivalent, (however, like the Scots, I am swayed a little by historical factors, and thus part of me thinks let them go..) but I am trying to approach this issue on more intellectual lines. So:

Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

[Jeff Young]

Political and economic balkanization tends to weaken rather than strengthen countries. I would (like it matters! lol) prefer the UK to remain one. I've done only minimal reading on the subject and the reasons for the split (regional pride, belief that they are funding the London conurbation, etc.) seem dubious to me.

We get this occasionally here from Texas, or Florida, etc. In the end, it would weaken the US as well.

 

[Stephen Ducker]

Hi Keith,

Isn't it the case that the UK is 'Great Britain plus Northern Ireland'
or more formally the "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Therefore as I understand it, in the referendum Scotland could leave Great Britain which by default means they leave the UK.

I would suggest that this also pulls them out of NATO & the EU etc.

( I do not believe that Independence & EU membership can go together anyhow, but that's another story for another day )

Despite what the SNP's extremely vocal leader says, I do not believe they have any 'right' to continue to use Sterling as their currency.
The rest of the UK may allow them to keep the pound, but this is by no means guaranteed.

I believe that the EU would make membership of the Euro currency a condition of an independent Scotland joining the EU.

In short I believe it's in Scotlands interest to remain in Great Britain.

Regards Steve

 

[Paul Brameld]

No it should not :idea:

 

[Keith]

Hi Stephen, it gets a bit complicated because historically 'Britain' is (or was) England + Wales. 'Great Britain' IS England Scotland & Wales following The Act Of Union.

Technically, if you remove Scotland, then you render 'Great Britain' an obsolete term. Further, the only Kingdoms that were united (by the Act of Union) were England & Scotland so the term 'United Kingdom' would also be technically obsolete.

For the English, this is also a difficult time as we have very little national identity being brought up as 'British' which of course has absolutely no bearing on the referendum at all, save for the fact that I have heard quite a few Scots say that an 'independent Scotland would be good for the English'

Well, actually, there really is no such thing as English. Technically (!) we don't exist, at least not as an identity on official forms.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Keith, we will trade you Texas, a formerly independent country, just like Scotland, for Scotland. Many Texans would like to be an independent country again. This would help them along their road to independence. And the Scots want to be free of Great Britain. This would help them, too.

Not that I would rather have Scotland; I wouldn't. But everyone would get to have an entirely new experience, longhorn cattle would adapt to the northern climate, and besides it would be fun to hear Scots and Englishmen learning how to talk like Texans. Trying saying "y'all" in a Scots or British accent.

 

[Ian Anderson]

Yes
And let it take RBS, and Bank of Scotland's debts on

And all the revenue from oil and gas ---- That's a joke!
If a country puts a duty on fuel it charges the duty on fuel used within it's borders.
If scotland thinks it can put a duty on the fuel it "mines" and then sell it on else where the "elsewhere" will go to the international market and buy on the open market at a cheaper price.

Likewise Duty on Spirits (Whisky) - as with the fuel it can only levy the duty on spirit sold insde it's own borders. The duty is not charged on exported whisky as it is levied by the country into which it is being imported

So yes let them be independent and then realise the SNP model does not work

Ian

 

[Keith]

I don't think the Spanish will be mad keen to let them slide into the EU without due process. They have a little issue such as the Basque question looming. They would certainly not want the Scots to establish any such precedent so I believe Salmond is being entirely disingenuous on that issue.

Any genuine Scots got a hat to chuck in the ring?

More importantly, what are the voting rules for those (Scots) domiciled in England/Wales? I am assuming you will have a postal vote, but what nationality/birthplace rules are they applying, or will you all have to go to 'Bethlehem?'

 

[Stephen Ducker]

Hi Keith

Salmond is disingenuous on most issues !

Re. the UK, the Kingdom of Ireland ended in 1800 when it joined 'us' in another Act of Union, (ignoring the bit that subsequently became Eire in 1922, when we then had to start calling the top bit Northern Ireland), thus I believe we would still be " a UK" but a UK of England Wales & Northern Ireland. I think ? ! ? possibly.

Clearly we could chase our own tails on this for ages, perhaps some bar graphs, democrat v republican, gun control stuff would be simpler................

Cheers Steve

 

[Ian Anderson]

Any genuine Scots got a hat to chuck in the ring?
QUOTE]

What do you call genuine?

I can trace my family tree back to the Bard himself (Robert Burns)
That is throught my Mother, her mother and her mother - after that I cannot remember exact route!

And my daughter is even more interesting - Robert Burns on my side and King George 5th on wife's side (Sachse family)

So where would her allegiance lie as she was born in Kingston upon Thames?

Ian

 

[Keith]

Give it time Stephen, give it time - I'm still awaiting the 'sweaty socks' to weigh in with their 'Scottish Sterling'

(How the f**** would that work?)

 

[Keith]

Any genuine Scots got a hat to chuck in the ring?
QUOTE]

What do you call genuine?

I can trace my family tree back to the Bard himself (Robert Burns)
That is throught my Mother, her mother and her mother - after that I cannot remember exact route!

And my daughter is even more interesting - Robert Burns on my side and King George 5th on wife's side (Sachse family)

So where would her allegiance lie as she was born in Kingston upon Thames?

Ian

I do not know the rules for the Referendum hence my question. For myself, my Grandmother's maiden name was Scott, my surname is Hardy and my christian name is Keith so there's three Tartans right there. (Incidentally, they make a very fine malt whisky at Glen Keith. Oh yes, they named a whole damned distillery after me!)

However strong my Scottish roots are on both my Mother's and Father's side, I consider my self a true Anglo-Saxon and my surname is also of Germanic origin. I am domiciled in the ancient kingdom of Wessex from which (save for a brief American interlude of some 6 years) I have not strayed, boy, man or beast for some 62 years, and the further South I am, the better I likes it.

 

[Keith]

Who can vote?

From the YES website:

British citizens resident in Scotland.
Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.
It is also very likely that arrangements for service personnel registered to vote in Scotland but likely to be serving outside of the country at the time of the referendum will be the same as for other elections.

Service personnel in this position can register as "service voters" for five years.

This would give them the option of postal and proxy voting. Most will use proxy voting as postal voting can be difficult to complete in the time required.

 

[Mark]

Scotland (a Country I hold dear), should vote for independence, IF they want to be a Country regarded on a level similar level to that of Bosnia.

Otherwise, I sincerely hope that the Scottish people will see through the procrastination of their Political representatives and see it for what it is. If not.....

Screw 'em and they can bugger off if they want to keep Sterling and the NHS and the Armed Forces and Social Security and the Welfare State and and and

 

[DaveM]

I think there's about as much chance of Scotland going it alone as Gibraltar joining Spain. I like Jim's idea of trading Scotland for Texas. Actually why don't you take all of our South East? Having a Scottish mother I'm kind of embarrassed that Scottish immigrants to our SE ended up as hillbillies. I'd much rather have Sean Connery as a compatriot than Honey Boo Boo!

 

[Keith]

Do the voting rules stating Citizens of EU countries resident in Scotland can vote include economic migrants?

It kinda makes sense that the Irish can vote, after all, where would Northern Ireland be without Scottish Presbyterians?

But Romanians? Poles? Does that make any sense?

Whenever I see a reference to 'Postal' and 'Proxy' Voting, I automatically expect many disputes & recounts not to mention skullduggery.

 

[Mark]

One thing we can be sure about, no matter what the result of any referendum. The number places reserved for political representatives will undoubtedly be more than we have right now. Independent, or remaining a part of the UK (an important part in my opinion), we will most assuredly see more seats for even more politicians.

 

[Mike Drew]

If Scotland was to leave, that would leave the remining entity as only a Semi-United Kingdom.

Do you really want to have people address your letters and packages with "SUK"? :laugh:

 

[Mark]

Sorry Mike, but if not United, then just Kingdom will do. Sounds OK to me!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Personally I think the Scots would be mad to leave the U.K. I would be very surprised if the yes vote got up. But then I am observing from afar.