016 or 01E?

Robert or Hershal,
I have been following the several discussions on which gearbox is the best choice for the RF with a 302. I know the standard fittment is the 016 but that the gearing is not the best. My first question is to those of you using the 016 in it's stock configeration. How is it really to drive? Is the short first a real bother and does having the motor turning at almost 3K rpm at 60 a real problem.

Would I be better served by going to the 01E, if so what is the cost of that box and Robert can you assist in getting? I know I'm a long way from needing these items but if i can get hold of the right part i will just store it till needed.

Peter

 

[Mark Clapp]

Peter, I have a stock 016 mated to a fairly stock 302 and drive it on the street. The first gear is only good for about 15 mph, but to me is not so much a bother. It's a fun and emphatic burst when starting out. At 70 the rpm's are around 2800 so not really screamming. I'm sure the top end suffers but the highway patrol frowns upon the top end. For street driving it hasn't been that uncomfortable to me especially given its reliability. I know I can't break it without some really crazy wheel-spinning. The only ones I've heard breaking them are the Aussies and we all know they are a little crazy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif For a tight-turned road course, I'm betting it works great. For a wide-open track, top end may be a concern. It comes down to where you will be driving it. For me, cheap and reliable overshadows a few short gears.

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Hi Peter,
I have the 016 in my GT. I used the 5N box first which has has the 4:11 R&P. It felt fine to me from second gear on to 5th. The only real problem I had was that at 75MPH I was turning 3600 RPMs. I never used first gear. I just drove it as though it wasn't there. Later on I purchased a 3U box which is only available in Europe. It has slightly wider gears and a 3:89 R&P. First gear was still unusable but the only difference I really noticed was the RPMs at 75 MPH were around 2800.
These 016 transaxles are good strong units as long as you keep the power under 400HP and the torque at 350 FT LBS..
As long as you drive the car on the street and roadrace events you will be fine. But if you start doing Dragrace burnouts then you can expect some problems. I know, been there done that too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The new six speed box Robert has is a good strong box as well and it can take 500HP and 400 FT LBS of torque. It's
called an 01E and the first gear is not that much better than the 016 but it is usable. However the 6th gear is a true overdrive and linds itself well to freeway driving speeds. The price is around 5K without limited slip.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Robert Logan]

I noticed with interest that only Roaring Forties are having problems with the OI6 gearboxes. This can be put down to the fact that only Roaring Forties customers are talking about their misfortunes or that the Roaring Forties cars are puting their power down much better. We do not use bigger wheels on the contory we use smaller tyres so what is happening. Our standard cars with 320 hp are doing 13.2 sec quarter miles time after time. This is not ment as a stir, only as a point of interest.

The comments above by Hershal are exactly as I would have said right down to the torque and hp figures for both boxes. As I have discussed earlier we have cars with almost 500 hp mated to OI6 boxes and they are doing fine but they are used on race tracks and not on the strip. I would hope that the OIE would take much more than the 500 hp but I do not think that horse power is needed.

The OIE boxes are effectively a 5 speed gearbox with an extra overdrive. What I mean by that is that the ratios are as the 5N but with an extra gear. The gears are slightly different but not that much except for the fact that they are 25% larger. The real need is for a NEW ring and pinion.

As a closing point my wifes Saburu (turbo charged) spins at the same speeds for MPH as our 40's do but they do not sound as GREAT !!!!! Give me a V8 any day of the week.

Best wishes,

Robert

 

[Ron Earp]

Anyone that uses the box is affected by it, including CAV cars. But, with the risk of getting entirely flamed and kicked off the board I think a few of the CAV owners I've spoken to were not as knowlegable about the boxes/ratios/cars as many builders so they might not know where to start or what to look for with issues. Thus, they might not post. But some are knowlegable and do contribute.

Having driven the box I don't think 1st gear is all that unuseable I wouldn't call it fantasic, if that makes since. If it is mated to an engine that makes peak hp at 4800 RPM and won't rev much past 5200, i.e. a stock or slighted modded 5.0L motor, then you're going to be quite unhappy with the box. So, those thinking to just get a lo-po crate motor, putting a dual plane intake and carb on it I'd suggest not doing it.

Heaving learned more about the cars and boxes since I built my motor I would, if forced to use the 016, build a hih RPM screamer what can take 7200-7400 RPM and makees peak power in the 6500 range. My stoker is safe to around 6500 and peaks at 5700 or so, the extra RPM might make the most out of the gearbox.

Just my thought of the day.

R

 

[Mike Dozier]

Ron

I think we hear a little more about the RF experiences
since RF hit the streets sooner than CAV, and the original
contributors to the Forum were mostly RF owners. But certainly the same 016 issues apply to all users.

To be honest, if you want to run lots of HP, I think the G50
is a stronger trans than the 01E, can be had for $ 3000 give or take, and has lots of aftermarket support.

Getting back to Peter's question, I'd almost suggest
waiting on a trans selection until we see what pans out.
Depending on his driving habits, an N code box with Robert's
new top gear may be just fine for him. My Mustang had a 3.73 rear, and first gear was pretty useless except for
cruising the parking lot...but I got used to it, and
5th was low enough to still cruise the highway comfortably.

It will also be interesting to see how successful our guys are with swapping the Porsche 3.38 R&P over to the 016.
That would also help.

MikeD

 

[Ron Earp]

MikeDD,

you might be right on the owners etc. and I think you are definitely right on the G50s. I think those trannies are stronger than the Audi boxes just from looking at them and seeing what people do with them on the Porsche and dune buggy scene. I'm sure the Audi units cna be improved, but the G50 and G50/50 units are available and are solid. Just flip'em upside down and change the vent/drains around, something a couple of shops will do for you, and use it. It should place the engine lower in the chassis too.

R

 

[Hershal Byrd]

The 01E box is a strong box. The first ones were made for the A8 and it was a 360HP 4.2 liter V8. In 2003 they use the same box in the RS6 Biturbo which puts out 450HP. I think this box is as good as the Porsche and maybe a tad better.
Remember now that you must flip the Posche box. This is really not the way the trans was meant to operate. It puts the half shaft to the top of the input shaft and this is
not a desirable thing especially for high horsepower applications.
The cost factor is the driving force here as it always is in most cases. I think any trans you choose is fine as long as you stay within the limits of that trans. A person who has got to have mega HP will have to spend the bucks for an RBT or a ZF. For right now I'm sticking with the 016 because it's plenty cheap and as long as I drive it with it's intended purpose I should be fine. At $300 or so I can use up a lot before I get to 10K. When I can afford the 01E I will buy one and use it when the last of my 016's have passed on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Gary Gibbs]

[ QUOTE ]

Remember now that you must flip the Posche box. This is really not the way the trans was meant to operate. It puts the half shaft to the top of the input shaft and this is
not a desirable thing especially for high horsepower applications.
Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean by this? Are you talking about the Porsche box or any boxes because this is exactly how the ZF in a GT40 works. It permits a lower mounted engine (as low as you want including dry sump and small diameter flywheels). And keeps the half shafts better in line. For high HP applications you can always add a cooler and dump the return line on top of the R&P for better cooling. Rick Merz has had great success with the flipped G50 and high HP.

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Gary,
Just from my own research I find that the Porsche box is a reasonable choice for this application but it has it's short comings as does some of the other choices in my opinion.There is a lot of gears available for these boxes on the aftermarket which in its self makes it attractive for a GT.The problem in my eyes is that from what I've heard and read is that these trans' are suseptible to R&P failure when they are hooked to a high horsepower motor with a lot of torque. I have no real data but I think some of this might be in relation to the inverting. I think the oiling system is a good idea on this kind of box.
I'm glad Rick is having success with his trans. I did see him in action at Run & gun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif He's doing a good job of possibly changing my mind. After all, I did lunch first gear in my Audi box.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Mike Dozier]

Hersh

Right on. You really can't beat the 016 so long as your driving style fits. But I can tell you
it would not last 1 day in Bill Bayard's car!
Ok...maybe a week.

So if Peter drives like you, sounds like the 016 is winner.
If he drives like Bill...better get the G50!
And you are also right on on the 01E.
If they were readily available in the States for $ 3k,
they'd be real popular with this crowd.
Unfortunately that's not the case.

MikeD

 

[Bill Bayard]

Guys,

The lower center of gravity gives huge a huge boost in
handling! Body roll is completely non-existent!
The flipping (drain/vent)took me 5 minutes. Braise vent
hole closed/drill a hole from one flat edge of the drain
plug halfway through, then drill up from the center at the
bottom, until the holes meet. I used the existing parts,
at no cost $$$! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
From all accounts, no DRB's have blown up G50s yet, and the Ultima crowd reports similar results, how ever, due to the ridiculous amounts of horsepower that some of those guys run, there have been some exceptions.
I have read the reports of G50 R&Ps blowing up too, but have yet to see any documentation of exactly how many have done so, or with what horsepower was behind or in front of them. Anybody know?
Although there are no G50 R&Ps readily available($2K if you must have one custom built), the gearsets that are available will give you pretty much any speed/rpm combo(Powerhaus II and others).
I have no pressurized oil cooling system on my gearbox, however, for those who want to race, Rick Merz's setup is the way to go, so the oiling/cooling is a non-issue, just more money.
And yes, I have given my G50 a thrashing! But again, no
problems related to the gearbox or axleshafts, just clutch.
I've gotten all that out of my system and will behave from
now on, I promise! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You guys just wait until your cars are on the road, and
we'll see how easy you are on them! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I think that Hersh knows all about that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bill

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Way to go Bill !
This is the kind of conversations we need so we know what experience each of us have with the different boxes. So far I have learned alot about transmissions in general. I like the Porsche box but I'm still gonna stick with the 016 for awhile. I may try the 01E next year.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Ron Earp]

Can we flip the Audi unit? Or is there no room to move the R&P around to get it to drive right?

If we did we'd get a big benefit from lowering the engine/tranny. I need to take a picture of the engine and tranny in the garage side on and I think folks would definitely agree, it should help a bunch.

And I learned something too. I don't see why I can't tap a NPT nipple into my drain plug, hook up a pump and cooler, then run it back into the drain at the top of my Audi box. Might not be worth squat, but, it won't cost but around $50 tops and might help that thing live a little longer with cool oil and a stream coming from the top. I'm on it!!! Any suggestions for a pump?

R

 

[Mark Worthington]

I've been told by AUdi guys that oiling/cooling the ring and pinion is key to making the 016 live long and prosper. That's also why I like certain variants of the 01E, especially the EKN, because they have the integral mechanical oil pump, in addition to much more favorable gearing (at least in the upper gears).

For now I'm going to go with my 016, which is equipped with a Quaife LSD and has been gone through, but I fully expect to break it at some point with a torquey engine and 315 tires. In the interim I will continue to research Audi boxes and look for a good deal on an 01E.

It really remains to be seen how the 01E boxes hold up to GT40s...there just aren't very many out there right now. One advantage the 01E has over the G50 though is that it is still in production and new parts are readily available.

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Sorry for the short reply but cant talk long. With the porsche flipping still keeps the box rotating the same way with respect to itself so not changes are necessary. With the ZF the ring gear must be flipped to the other side of the pinion to run inverted, but the box was designed symmetric for this option (or by accident). The Audi box is NOT symmetric and thus the ring gear can not be "easily" moved to the other side. I wondered if the case could be disassembled and machined such that another removable output shaft cover could be added to the other side making the case symmetric. Not sure it is worth the effort (machining, etc.) but I have thought about it.

In Ricks setup which seems great the filtered oil is returned through jets to each gear mesh and the R&P (six total returns).

 

[Rick Merz]

I use a Tilton pump but I will have to look up the model number and other information, if someone would like this info email me. It sprays all 5 gears plus the ring gear through .050 orifices screwed into the fittings, which are screwed into the case.

 

[Bill Bayard]

Here's a shot of Rick's G50 oiling/cooling setup. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Mark Worthington]

Rick, that is a really sweet setup you have there! They look like, what, -6 fittings? Aren't they kinda big for 0.050' orifices though? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

How did you arrive at that orifice diameter? I can't imagine you'd get very much flow out of five or six 0.050" orifices even at a fairly high pressure - is there another return to the tranny where most of the flow happens? What pressure does the system operate at? Do you have a thermostat in the line somewhere?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm very interested in that setup.

 

[Ron Earp]

I'm definitely adapting that to my box, at least one spray over the top into the R&P. The others would be a little more difficult onthe Audi box but certainly possible.