289/302-Wet or Dry sump Best?

I know that this has probably been covered but I can't find it in searching the Forum. It's probably a tech thing for me.
What are the opinions of wet or dry sump for the SBF engine? I know that some of the small block cars had dry sump and some didn't.
Also, who in your experience makes the best oil pan for wet sump and who makes the best dry sump system. Pro's and con's?
I am leaning toward dry sump but there is very little info for the GT40 on a system that will be as trouble free as Porsche's systems currently in use. There has to be something out there. I would welcome any opinions either way.

By the way, if you favor wet sump sytems, please tell me the best pan and pump combo in your experience.

All opinions would be appreciated.
Garry
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
Garry I don't have your answers but will say my next project on engine out would be a dry sump or an external drive oil pump. I believe the dry sump to be the safest lubrication system for any race engine and its been proven time and time again. I believe cost is the biggest factor on dry sump and lots of plumbing.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Best oil pan is Armando (or Aviaid, which are made by Armando, or were). Virtually all or all of the races won by SBF-equipped GT40s were won by cars running wet sump engines. Big wet sumps- about nine quarts, I think. I'm not sure you would gain much from a dry-sump system. I think the 427 cars ran dry sumps, though. The articles in car magazines of the period describe the dry sump engine and all the hardware.

If I were going to do this now, which I wouldn't, I would look at Canton or one of those companies that make dry sump systems and see what they had. Aviaid also makes them, I think.
 
Garry:
I would think that the advantages of dry sump would be more oil resovoir, better oil cooling especially with an external cooler, more consistent pressures when cornering hard, and a much shallower oil pan profile enabling the motor to be lowered 4 or 5". Although this may be difficult in some chassis due to gearbox interference with the chassis members. One of the nicest setups I have seen was a 347 stroker coupled to a G-50 box which sat really low in the chassis as the gearbox was run inverted.
The disadvantage as was mentioned is the cost, and of course all the extra plumbing, and unless you are running the motor at extreme levels I would think a good high capacity wet sump with an external cooler would work just fine and save you a lot of bucks.
Just my 2c
Cheers
Phil
 
Jim thanks for the tips on DS systems manufacturers.
I really appreciate the comments. Any one else want to weigh in? Jack Mac? Ross?

Garry
 

Ron Earp

Admin
There are literally thousands of race cars that run every weekend in the SCCA and NASA that are wet sump motors, including my own. Full on racing, not spirited driving or a track day. I've got a trap door system, some direction baffles, and two types of scrapers down in my wet sump system. According to my data logging system lateral g load is between 1.2 to 1.3g, L & R, and my needle is solid as a rock around 60 psi while racing.

I'm positive you can get a good wet oil pan (Canton baffled/trap doors) and many others for your car and you won't be giving up anything with oil pressure. You can have modifications done to such a pan, and engine, to improve oil flow if you like.
 
Some other dry sump benefits: reduced/eliminated oil windage - more horsepower, generation of crankcase vacuum - attenuates pumping losses and improves ring sealing for more horsepower, externally adjustable oil pressure, and elimination of oil pump drive from the distributor.
 
Sole reason why I am also contemplating dry-sump is engine placement within my chassis, looking at it right now, I have 8" from the bottom of the chassis to my
engine mounts. I figured going with wet-sump first and then decide whether to
proceed with a full-on dry-sump conversion. As I'm building the car for occasional use and long-distance driving, I wanted to keep my systems fairly simple...
 
Best: is dry sump. If your going to race & spend much time above 6000 then its a must have, WHY? simple.. tires & lateral grip have improved sooo much over what was available back in the sixties.. You 'might' get away with a very well designed wet pan but you will always be on the brink of disaster.
Other than that a 289/302 in a road application should be OK with a wet pan, just remember that as soon as you try to race it or fit a stroker crank your changing all the rules.
 

JohnC

Missing a few cylinders
Lifetime Supporter
Dailey Engineering make one of the highest quality dry sump systems available, and they have an "integrated" type design, where the scavenge pump stages are integrated with the pan itself, which all but eliminates the rat's nest of braided hose. Not cheap, but high quality rarely is.
 
Interesting topic for me:

Got my GT40 on the track for its first circuit sprint event on Sunday. And looking at gauge on first timed lap you could see pressure dropping significantly once getting to around 1 g cornering. Which is not enough to be competitive (1.2 - 1.3 g is the aim)So I checked oil level, added a bit more just to be sure, but had to drive with one eye on the gauge and use it as a learning day, which is all it was ever going to be at this stage of development. This despite having a Milodon road race sump fitted, 7 quart capacity and baffles/swinging trapdoors everywhere! Not happy at all. I've already destroyed one crank during early testing, and was rather hoping this problem would not appear again.

I've ordered an Accusump and electronic control valve. That should hopefully keep oil pressure constant, but we'll wait and see. A dry sump would be nice, but a lot of effort and expense.
 
All very good opinions. Thank you for weighing in on this topic.
John, I'll look into Dailey Engineering, thanks. Truth be told, I was hoping the wet sump application would suffice. I plan to use it on track days, but the Big Bend high-speed road course Jack Houpe just completed really gets my motor running. I hope to make it next year.

Jack, your advice is really helpful. I read your thread about oil pressure problems over a long high speed run.

Jac Mac, you pointed out exactly the problem I was worried about. I want to build an engine capable of running at 6000 or better for a longer run, even if I don't get to stretch it out very much. A little extra protection can really pay off is my way of thinking.
Now, I need to determine the best sytem to use. Obviously, I want to make it as simple to maintain as possible but get the job done. Not being an engine guru, some of the information that I have researched at Aviad and Canton left me a little confused. Anyone with experience in these options would be welcomed to weigh in...2 stage, 3stage,4stage...which is best for SBF.
Thanks.
Garry
 

Dutton

Lifetime Supporter
I had a look at the Dailey Engineering website yesterday afternoon, and was impressed enough to call. Appreciate the hyperlink, John.

Had a nice conversation with a chap about their dry sump systems for a Ford 302 and learned that it would run in the range of $6,000 US for everything needed except the tank.

Expensive? Yes. Quality? Sure looks like it.

I'd encourage anyone seriously considering a dry sump to at least give them a call to discuss.

T.
 

Keith

Moderator
Dailey Engineering make one of the highest quality dry sump systems available, and they have an "integrated" type design, where the scavenge pump stages are integrated with the pan itself, which all but eliminates the rat's nest of braided hose. Not cheap, but high quality rarely is.
Oooh, I like that... :thumbsup:
 

Keith

Moderator
Interesting topic for me:

had to drive with one eye on the gauge and use it as a learning day, which is all it was ever going to be at this stage of development. This despite having a Milodon road race sump fitted, 7 quart capacity and baffles/swinging trapdoors everywhere! Not happy at all.
Been there with a "bells & whistles" Milodon and went cross eyed watching the oil gauge and Craner Curves all at the same time. Was unhappy with the readings, DNF'd after 10 laps so stripped down the fresh SBC - too late, the crank was toast, probably with a lot less g's than a '40 pulls too. (Penske Camaro)
 
Oe of the problems with a wet sump is even with a pan that's properly baffled and has all the scrapers, trap doors etc, is during a sustained high G loading turn or braking event, when using a rear sump pan, the trap door area of the sump can be pumped dry because the oil is held by the G forces and not allowed to fall back into the sump area to be drawn in by the pickup. This has happened with the 331 on my FFR during heavy braking from high speeds. Because I didn't want to use a dry sump, my solution was to change from a rear sump Canton to a front sump Armando's GT40 pan.

Probably one of he best wet sump pumps you can buy is from www.precisionoilpumps.com. They are internally moly coated, with precision fitted gears and an adjustable pressure relief that will allow you to set the oil pressure.

Armando's pans doesn't make the Aviad pans. They are two separate companys. Armando used to be employed by Aviad, but that is the extent of their relationship.
 

Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
I've already destroyed one crank during early testing, and was rather hoping this problem would not appear again.

I've ordered an Accusump and electronic control valve. That should hopefully keep oil pressure constant, but we'll wait and see. A dry sump would be nice, but a lot of effort and expense.
How much effort and expense have you had already??! If anyone is even thinking about track time on decent tyres, a dry sump is an investment in reliability. Anything else will only be a band aid that merely disguises the basic problem. Road/race wet sump , engine damage, accusump..... how does that stack up against biting the bullet and going for a dry sump first up?
 
Yeah, well if I could go back in time I may have bit the bullet and sorted out a dry sump system first up. But pretty much all cars I compete with have wet sumps and my previous competition car did also with no bearing damage. I'm just a bit dissapointed that a supposed competition oil sump did not perform at all. Sure, I could keep trying different brands of wet sumps, but where does it end? At I dry sump, I know...

Meanwhile I'll report back once I have done some track testing with the accusump system fitted, but that is a few weeks away unfortunately. Reports I have from some Australian GT40's fitted with them that see some track time are positive.
 
Interesting topic for me:

Got my GT40 on the track for its first circuit sprint event on Sunday. And looking at gauge on first timed lap you could see pressure dropping significantly once getting to around 1 g cornering. Which is not enough to be competitive (1.2 - 1.3 g is the aim)So I checked oil level, added a bit more just to be sure, but had to drive with one eye on the gauge and use it as a learning day, which is all it was ever going to be at this stage of development. This despite having a Milodon road race sump fitted, 7 quart capacity and baffles/swinging trapdoors everywhere! Not happy at all. I've already destroyed one crank during early testing, and was rather hoping this problem would not appear again.

I've ordered an Accusump and electronic control valve. That should hopefully keep oil pressure constant, but we'll wait and see. A dry sump would be nice, but a lot of effort and expense.
I can see the benefits of the Accusump system but what happens when the Accusump oil is used??? Come time for the engine oil pump to refill the accusump and what happens to the engine bearings? If the engine oil pump is spending time refilling the accusump the engine bearings will be running dry again. What do the peeps think??
 

Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Possibly, but it may just mean that less oil gets bypassed. Maybe an accusump system would be a good candidate for a HV pump? But really a dry sump is a no brainer, you cure two common problems with one stroke. Maintain consistent oil pressure regargless of G forces, and eliminate the heavy loadings that lead to excessive dist gear wear.
 
Top