4.6 vs. 302

Ron Earp

Admin
Good photo! That'll learn you something, less displacement (the 5.0 can be 5.6 with no change) with more size. I still haven't figured out where the 4.6 and 5.4 OHC motors were a good thing from Ford...GM seemed to meet emission standards just fine with the pushrod motors and are making some wonderful variants at the moment...

Ron
 
Niether has an intake manifold. I can tell you that the 4.6 L manifold sticks up high enough to run both hands under it while it is mounted. I think the 4.6 engine is about the size of a Top Fuel Hemi!
 
Ron,

Here's an explanation provided from the Pantera forum (not sure if the poster is "in-the-know or not):

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> The Ford modular V8 packaging was compromised for transverse mount
installations. When the engine was designed, Ford believed many of
them would be installed in transverse front wheel drive applications.
This dictated the engines be as short as possible longitudinally so
they would fit in the planned engine compartments when installed
transversely. The bore spacing is very narrow resulting in very
small bores and long strokes for their displacements. The 4.6L and
5.4L V8's have bores about the size of my little Buick 215 cube V8.
To get the displacement desired, the blocks had to be relatively tall.

The small bores limit the valve curtain area and, ultimately, the
maximum flow the heads can achieve and power the engine can develop.
This forced the designers to 4 valve per cylinder heads for the high
performance versions. Unfortunately, the heads and cam drives were
made very bulky. Combine the enormous cylinder head castings with the
tall decks needed to contain the long stroke cranks and you get an
engine that is very tall and wide and doesn't lend itself to swapping
in many engine bays. In a Pantera that can easily swallow a 460 big
block, either the heads must altered (shaved for clearance) or the
inner fenders clearanced. Even in aluminum, the engines are heavy
for their displacement. A look at this comparison shows why:
http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/motor-4.6-4V-004.jpg

With the limited bore spacing, stroke and extra cylinders are your
only ways to get extra displacement. The 5.4L V8 (with a taller deck
to accomodate the longer stroke crank) and 6.8L V10 are the direct
result. The 5.4L V8's have an even worse bore/stroke ratio than the
4.6L, resulting in very high piston speed. A bunch of the Lightning
truck 5.4L engines have snapped connecting rods and ventilated blocks
due to this.

Given these (and other) deficiencies, it's quite clear why Ford has
had to resort to supercharging to stay competitive. John Colleti,
the head of Ford's Special Vehicle Team recently gave an interview
in which he explained why the Ford's 2003 Cobra is supercharged.
He said they were able to reach their power goals with the normally
aspirated 4.6L DOHC V8 but they couldn't keep the motor together
for the durability cycle, even with premium aftermarket race rods
(2003 Cobras use Manley H-beam forged rods and forged steel cranks).
They also reverted to an iron block from the previous Cobra's aluminum
block (Mustang Cobra weight is up to nearly 3700 pounds now). There's
probably a reason for that. As it is, the 5.4L supercharged V8's in
the Lightnings are exploding at an alarming rate. A friend has one
and is on an owner's forum. At last count, over 40 owners have blown
engines with the usual failure mode being (predictably) the connecting
rods.

Dan Jones

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andy
 
When I saw that Ford was using that motor in the new GT I knew they were screwing up. That motor weighs in over 500lbs with no accessories on it. It's top heavy and takes up way too much engine compartment space. All you need to do is look under a Ford Lightening to see that.
Why Ford couldn't follow through with a complete program on the GT is beyond me. Chrysler didn't drop the ball when they came out with the Viper. It was a totally new design and a new V10 engine from the ground up. Ford didn't follow through and now they are hearing about it. Seeing that they own Jaguar you would have thought they might see if there was a possibility of juicing up that V12 the jags used to have. Now that would have been revolutionary.
grin.gif


Hersh
smile.gif
 
Yes, the 4.6 DOHC is a pig and the bore/stroke ratio on the 5.4 is downright frightening. I wouldn't be surprised to see the new GT40 offer the 6.0L Aston Martin V12, at least as an option. Especially if one must pay $150,000 for a Ford, I think most GT40 owners would prefer a V12 to a V8, even if it isn't "correct" in a GT40.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
This is really fascinating. It makes you wonder what the durability of these motors will be in the new GT40. Ford will want all the power they can squeeze out of them for performance figures and advertising dollar, and the car owners will then thrash the cars and the engines will blow up. Not good PR.
I suppose you can't put your "old" technology in your new flagship vehicle, but I suspect they would have had far less problems if they did what GM's done- use a high-tech pushrod engine with good electronic engine control systems and EFI. It's ironic, in a way, because much of the debate when GT40s were new was about "big" American pushrod V8s versus "small" European (read Ferrari) OHC multivalve engines. Ford's performance solution from the 60s may be better than what they have chosen to go with nowadays.
 
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The explanation as to why the 4.6 was designed with such lop-sided bore/stroke dimensions doesn't quite ring true with me.

When you take into account that a V8 should be no different to two 4cyl engines side-by-side, overall length/bore/stroke dimentions should be no different.

Getting 150HP out of a 2.0ltr 4Cyl multivalve engine is no big deal. Double it, as a V8 and it equates to 300HP out of 4.0ltr... no slouch... and thats still in standard road tune.

And reliablity? I own a Honda Prelude with a 150HP 2Ltr engine (FWD & mounted horizontally), that has travelled almost 200,000 km (120,000 miles) and still going strong.

Either Ford have got their phylosophies of multivalve engine design totally screwed, or I've missed something.
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Chris,

I wish it were that simple to say that
2 4 cylinder engines side by side would
equal 1 8.

There's more loss in the mechanics - in
a 4 cylinder, 1 detonation has only 3
"dead" pistons to overcome, in an 8,
1 detonation has 7 "dead" pistons.
Add in a longer crank for more power loss,
and 2 Honda 2.0's mated together would not
achieve 300HP without some extra engineering.

Ian
 
Checkout the Drysdale V8 engine from Australia,two 400cc yamaha cylinder heads and homemade crankcases using other yamaha components 17000rpm and 120kW power,extremely well designed and executed
 
It is true they were designed with front wheel drive in mind. As far as durability Ford was at least wise enough to use Manley rods and JRE pistons in the new supercharged cobra.
 
Ian,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
There's more loss in the mechanics - in
a 4 cylinder, 1 detonation has only 3
"dead" pistons to overcome, in an 8,
1 detonation has 7 "dead" pistons.
Add in a longer crank for more power loss,
and 2 Honda 2.0's mated together would not
achieve 300HP without some extra engineering.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How I see it, there should be less frictional losses in a single V8 compared to the combined losses of two 4cyl engines... but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

* Twice as many "dead" pistons, but twice as many detonations/revolution to overcome it. Overall difference in loss = 0

* One longer V8 crank is still shorter than two 4Cyl cranks.

* Less main-bearing surface area compared to 2 4Cyl engines

Incidentally, I find it interesting as an Australian, that the reputation of the Drysdale engine has made it to the US.

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Chris L ]
 
Chris,

The only real world example I can bring up
(and take it with as much salt as you desire)
is:

GM 2.3L Quad 4 produced 180HP/165 lbs/ft in HO form.

GM 4.6L Northstar V8 produces 300HP/295lbs/ft
in HO form (there's a version with 275/300).

The Northstar is essentially two Quad 4s mated
together, but further refined and improved.
And I'm only talking stock showroom numbers,
as both engines have been modified aftermarket
and with some astounding results. The Aurora/
Indy V8 is similar to the Northstar, and there's
some freaks getting 900HP out of tuned Quad 4s.

Ian

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Ian K ]
 
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