Audi 016 Owners/Users

Ron Earp

Admin
016 Drivers/Owners

I'd like to get some feedback from owners and drivers of the 016 Audi box behind a domestic V8 engine. The 016 gets a lot of bad remarks, but, a lot of the remarks many times come from people who have not owned the box, nor driven it, nor spent any time with it. Sorry, don't mean to offend, just trying to eliminate some bench racing bias before starting.

I know that there is one certain track car in Detroit that has an 016 and has many track hours with no failure - with a 500+ hp motor in front of it. I also know that one of the Audi boxes I supplied to a RF owner was destroyed in repeated full throttle drag launches, which might be expected of a lot of transaxles and not isolated to an 016. I know they are probably not ideal, but I'm trying to get some real world data on them - failures, problems, prevention, etc.


I know that many of the early CAVs, before the new CAV company, were sold with Audi/016 boxes. I saw many of them back when traveling around the country 3-4 years ago. RF's used them almost exclusively. I'd like to hear how folks have made out and what experiences they have had. I'm seriously not interested in a debate about which gearbox is best, just real data from folks using the 016.

Thanks,
Ron
 
Four track days to date. I’ll firstly declare that I had a synchro-ring failure on the first track day out but that was caused by a badly adjusted shift linkage (stopped 3rd from fully engaging… my fault) but other than that, so-far-so-good. I tend to drive the car with some sympathy though, always using the clutch and always heel-toeing on the down-shift, and I’ve never dumped the clutch on take-off. I have 320HP behind it so its enough but not excessive. The feel of the shift was a bit notchy initially but has settled in well after 20,000 km of mostly spirited road use.
 

Neal

Lifetime Supporter
I think the 016 is a perfectly capable box. I've spoken with a number of people regarding failures and most seem to be bone yard specials. I think it's unrealistic to put a decent amount of power in front of these without a proper rebuild. German Transaxle of America had a bunch of insight regarding the reliability most of which centered around bearing wear and runout. I found my original 5N to be OK but the ratios are not ideal. The 3.22 R&P box has proven to be a much better setup. In the end I believe it represents a cost effective alternative to a ZF.
 
I've had my stock 016 box since 2000 and have a 302 engine. I do not do dry wheel spins. I do give it hell once rolling and have never had a problem. As well known, due to the ratio, first gear is very short-lived but the rest are all usable and allow the motor to pull hard through each gear.
 
I have had the rear bearing casting machined and a steel carrier put in to stop the bearing lip breaking if the cluthc is dropped. I do not hit hard in 1st as it is quite short gear but get her started then use 2nd to get her going and third is incredible just goes on for ever.
I think that if the box is rebuilt properly with a carrier then it is good for some abuse.

Regards
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Has anyone started machining strengthening parts for them I wonder? The 500+ hp car I wrote about eariler had a billet side plate, probably to provide more support for the ring gear bearings and deal with side loads. Looks like some folks have had good experiences with them, with this limited population.

What bad experiences have people had? I know Hershal munched one way back when, but it was also somewhat predictable it'd get munched because it was shown no mercy. I'm not big on drag strip launches etc, just want the thing to hold up for street driving and track driving, neither of which have me dumping clutches at 5000 RPM.

R
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I'll do it, and I'll tell all, from install to running it.

If KED will ever get off their butts and send my parts I'll start building the Lola. Basically I haven't done much since it really starts with engine etc. and it has been brutally hot outside for sanding on the body. 101 today and has been extremely hot for two weeks now.

I have a new 016 from German Transaxle, bought it a few years ago, and had them set it up for the new Quaiffe that is in it. So, I figure it is a good starting place as any. I can't blame failures on junkyard boxes and it was set up by as good a place as I know. I think I am going to add a oil cooler and oil pump to the box to help out a bit.

Sounds like you guys treat your boxes as it makes sense to do so - no clutch dumps and proper rev matching. I've still got the steep R&P, but I rebuilt the motor to turn RPM to deal with it.

There are a lot of these running around though since a lot of GT40s were built with them. Like to see if other have had issues with them, and under what circumstances. Anytime a transaxle discussion comes up the first thing someone says is the 016 is no good, but thus far I've NOT heard of a lot of people who've had troubles.
 
Ron - I think you meant to say "but thus far I've [NOT] heard of a lot of people who've had troubles"

As for the heavy duty gearset out of the UK, it appears it never went anywhere. Apparently too few people ponied up real dollars to pay for the effort to develop/test. The 3.22 R&P is the only development that occurred to my knowledge.

MD
 
Ron,

I would think that the failure mode would be of significant interest. From that, perhaps we might understand where to focus proposed upgrades. The person that made that steel sandwich plate believed the cast iron pinion shaft bearing support was the weak point. He even had a photo of the failure. I think I saw discussion or photos where this was done on an 01E as well (I'd be interested in that). Not to derail the thread, but do you or anyone else have the link to that sandwich plate installation? I have the link from the old GT40's site, but can't link up on the new upgraded site (or maybe I can with some instruction?). I seem to recall one installation link that was rather brief, and the other had an entire detailed disassembly and install procedure.

Thanks,

Andy
 
Andy, I think that article was on RamboLambo's web site. Unfortunately, the link to his web site disappeared during the forum software switch, and I dodn't have it bookmarked.
 
016 H/D Quaife/CTS gear set

Mitch, quite the opposite mate, the prototype 016 gear set/gearbox is on the bench at CTS as I write this.
The reason we've taken no orders at present is simply because we've refused to take any.
There's little to be gained and a hard earned reputation to be lost in making big promises and taking money from people before we are 100% certain this gear set is exactly what we want it to be.
ONLY when we're at the stage of being 100% that the product is proven and right for the job it's been designed to do will we offer them for sale.
Untill we reach that point they are not for sale and we'll not take orders or money.
Other than that, all I can say at this point is please be assured that this forum will be among the very first to know when they are ready.
Then, we'll start taking orders, we get the orders we'll make the kits, though that said, we've a couple of trade customers waiting on the R&D as well, so it's just a question of time now.
Ah, now that reminds me, if there are any UK GT40 owners that have cars currently fitted with an 016 gearbox, have the car on the road and available now, with an engine fitted that is producing over (proven) 450bhp (500-600bhp would be nice but I know it's asking a lot) please email me at CTS or PM me through the forum here, we'd like to have a little chat with you.
 
Billet side plate on the 016

Ron,

I'm reply to what you wrote:

The 500+ hp car I wrote about eariler had a billet side plate, probably to provide more support for the ring gear bearings and deal with side loads.

I'm not really sure what good a 6061 T6 billet aluminum plate would do on the Audi 016.
The side of the trans that has the removable side plate to access the ring gear isn't the side that supports the ring gear from coming out. The gear is actually loaded in with the gear on the intergal case side, then the main shaft and pinion gear are slide into the case from the back. Therefore, when the gear set is put under extreme load the ring gear trys to go out the intergal case side away from the removable case side and the pinion gear trys to push out the back which is what fractures the cast iron case. This is where Jim Dinners steel plate Idea comes in really handy and stops this from happening. Another thing that I have also learned in my research is to set the ring gear to pinion gear backlash on the tight side this keeps the gears from banging together under hard load or when side stepping the clutch. If the gears don't impact due to large lash settings, they don't tend to slam against the back of the iron case.
I think this trans will hold up quite well to higher horsepower applications if alittle extra attention is paid to the few areas that need it.

Good luck,

Jim
 
I have to agree with Jim Sheren, the bolt on side cover just supports the right side bearing cup while the left side of the case carries the heavy load under torque.

Here is my experience in order of weakness;
1 - Cast iron lip at rear pinion bearing would break out.
2 - 1.250" dia axles would break after the plate was installed.
3 - Spider gears inside differential would break after the axles were strengthened.
I have replaced the spider gears 6 times now and it is possible to do without removing the transmission.
I installed a rear hatch hydraulic lift cylinder from a Honda onto the clutch fork via a ball joint. I had to drill the case and thread the clutch fork to do this.
The lift cylinder makes the clutch harder to push but it engages SLOWER. This will reduce the sudden shock to the driveline.
If a normal person were to drive the car it would be tough as nails.

mar606%20015.jpg


Jim
 
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spider gears

In the case of the spider gears failing, you can use a LSD out of the porsche 944 turbo trans, it's an exact replacement. This LSD has 4 spider gears instead of 2 which should double your torque capability at the spider gears. If you don't want it to be a limited slip lighten the spring force of the belleville washers by using lighter load washers, or thin up one of the steel plates in the clutch assembly of the LSD.

I think Jim Dinner has proven that this trans is capable of quite a bit of abuse, with the right modifications.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck Ron,
 
o16 with 944 internals

i am currently building a lola t70 and decieded to go for the 016 box mainly due to the cost factor. I have changed the internals to to the 944 turbo with a ls diff. A friend of mine uses the same box in his gt 40 with 500 HP he races in the historic championship which he has had no real problmns with the box considering he racing it.
 
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