BoP

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Watching the 24h yesterday, I started to think about the whole balance of performance thing and came to the open-minded conclusion that it's a total crock. What is its purpose? The only value I see it being able to provide is to coddle under-performing teams or lower the bar for sub-par race platforms. Can anyone eloquently explain why all teams aren't held to a consistent design and execution criteria?

If someone puts together a technically superior package, why are they penalized when they go faster?

I'd love to see the top levels of international racing actually be about racing and how fast we can go within a category. No BoP, DRS, or other tomfoolery... here are the rules, first one to the finish line wins.
 
BOP exists because of TV. It's a way to artificially create close racing, which increases drama, which makes a better show. There is a secondary effect of limiting costs, as costs always increase when there are factory teams involved- see F1 for an explanation if needed. That means more participants, which makes for a better show...
 
I'm with Chris. Unfortunately, I believe that Will is correct. Maybe it should be a NASCAR like series, everything the same but for decals.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Watching the 24h yesterday, I started to think about the whole balance of performance thing and came to the open-minded conclusion that it's a total crock. What is its purpose? The only value I see it being able to provide is to coddle under-performing teams or lower the bar for sub-par race platforms. Can anyone eloquently explain why all teams aren't held to a consistent design and execution criteria?

If someone puts together a technically superior package, why are they penalized when they go faster?

I'd love to see the top levels of international racing actually be about racing and how fast we can go within a category. No BoP, DRS, or other tomfoolery... here are the rules, first one to the finish line wins.
I posted virtually identical comments on another forum (that shall remain nameless) and got my figurative butt handed to me for having done so.

My 'summation' was; why should a team spend endless hours and dollars on R&D only to to have ITS car's performance artificially lowered to that of the slowest car on any given track?

'STILL feel that way.
 

Tim Terry

Supporter
I'm with you, Larry. Racing at that level should be about innovation, not equality of outcomes. How did we go from "Hey, that new thingamajig is cool!" to "Hey, that new thingamajig needs to be outlawed!"?
 

Stephen Ducker

Supporter
I'm in agreement with Chris & the anti BOP side of this. This system is like 'positive discrimination' in the work place, the best doesn't necessarily win the race or get the job. Therefore the result has a hollow feeling, what does the result of the race I just watched mean ? Who was the best driver & which was the best car on the day ? Were the 'winning team' merely the ones best at manipulating BOP & practice times etc ?

Personally, "close exciting TV friendly racing" & "keeping manufacturer 'x' in the championship, even though their car is obsolete or slow" by BOP spoils it for me. It's fake.
I suppose if you're a casual viewer you might not understand BOP or care, a lot of us do care though, especially the engineers who work hard, stretch the boundaries and build a better car....
Plus in my experience when people learn about BOP they are usually disappointed and turned off of the series.

I'd rather watch a one make series or several independent teams with the same model of car battle it out. British Touring Car racing had one of its best periods when nearly all the top drivers had Sierra RS500's.

Writer & historic racer Dickie Meaden wrote an excellent article on this subject in the October 2018 issue of Motorsport magazine. He also sides with you Chris.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
There's mot a race track in the world that would be safe to run a CANAM series on if given the rules they ran with and current technology. What you say? well think about the outright land speed record. The last attempt that resulted in a new record was what, 1997.

Can you imagine what would happen at Indy with no limit on performance. 250mph, 300mph..........who knows. What would happen is no human drivers or no race at all, that's what. And no spectators because no one would ever sanction a track with cars at those speeds anywhere near people.

Remember the P51 at reno. Damn near ended the unlimited class. Now think about a true unlimited aircraft class. They would have to run the race a 100 miles out to sea or in space for gods sake.

I got a rule set for ya.

Indy cars for example: Total downforce limited to cars weight (currently 1500lbs), wheel widths limited to 8 inch front and 10 inch rear, 2500 CC engines internal combustion piston driven with no limit on boost. All brake components must fit inside the wheels.

That will put them on the brakes for every corner with something like a 100mph coming off.

Do the same thing with F1 and you will get 10 competitive teams in 3 years.
 

Neil

Supporter
Howard;

The land speed record for wheel-driven cars (not jet or rocket) is 423.521 mph, set in August 2017 by George Poteet in "Speed Demon", a turbocharged streamliner running in A/BFS class. This was at Bonneville Salt Flats during Speed Week. In 2014, Speed Demon crashed at 370 mph but Poteet walked away, banged up but OK. Things go to hell quickly when you get a bit out of shape at those speeds.


As you pointed out, the current absolute speed record is held by Andy Green driving Thrust SSC at the Black Rock desert in 1997 but it was not wheel-driven.
 

Attachments

Total downforce limited to cars weight (currently 1500lbs),
Howard, I like this part/concept, but I cant think how you would implement it?

does it simply require a load cell on each wheel, sampling the wheel load at a particular frequency and then taking a moving window average to cancel out the irregularities of track bumps.

downforce would be dependent on speed, so the key would then become getting onto the limit of downforce at points where it was beneficial and bleeding it off where it was causing drag, so that you could increase the top speed.

Ryan
 
What's the matter, you guys don't like to watch paint dry? The 60s Trans Am, Can Am or to days V8 Supper Cars, the best racing!
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Ryan, flat bottoms, no diffusers or other aero devices below the center line of the wheels, mandated wings, and no other aero devices of any kind that aids performance. Simple rule really.

Bill, those were the days and I love the V8 super cars ( there is a rules package that could replace NASCAR if I had my way) I agree. BUT it was a lack of technology that allowed the CANAM rules package to work. Just think about them. No aero rules, no engine rules, no electronic rules of any kind. If those rules were offered today we would end up with bodied F1 cars with 1000's HP, complete electronic driver aid package, active suspension, 10000's pounds of downforce.

Not only would they cost much more than the P1 ALMS cars (1 team left really) but it would get to the point that no circuit would be safe enough for them.

Neil, the piston engine driven rear wheel class is in effect the new top class of LSR racing. It's competitive, relative cost contained, and can be run on existing venues. BUT it's the rules package that makes it that way. 1000MPH + aircraft in contact with the ground has no real future in LSR and everybody knows it with the exception of a couple of eccentric billionaires. My prediction is once someone does do 1000mph, the class will die under it's own $$$$$$$$$$ weight. Maybe to be replaced with a all electric top speed class. Lots of $$$$$$$$$$$ there.

No...……….rules make good racing but must limit performance and cost.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
One last thing. Fuel. Run Indy cars with a on board fuel limit (F1 too I suppose) and let them refuel at will. A full race balance will emerge on stops for fuel verse supper low lap times running at full power. Now that would be interesting, especially at Indy. I would love to see those guys in the last 25 laps with everyone with the boost turned up and 1500+ HP.
 

Neil

Supporter
Howard;

To support your position re land speed racing, the big British effot to break 1,000 mph has folded after spending 10s of millions of dollars. The jet/rocket car "Bloodhound" went TU earlier this summer.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
I found these: pretty interesting.



 

Howard Jones

Supporter
What I would think would/should happen in F1 would be a engine centric formula instead of the chassis centric/ out of control powertrain formula we have now in F1. Much like back in the 70's. Far too much of the cars performance is related to the chassis aero. That mated to a powertrain package that is far to complicated, heavy, and expensive has resulted in the same team winning all the races so far this year with the exception of the last race in Austria. The merks would have won there also if the weather hadn't produced temps 20 degrees above average and cooked them. Mercedes won't let that happen again.

Electric motor use without any restrictions on how much power they can produce (Power supply watt generation) is like the turbo era without boost limits. . We saw what happened there. 1500HP 2 lap bombs in qualifying. Get rid of them and use NA motors that are limited by nature and a modest rev limit. They will get the electric motors up to the combustion motor power levels if allowed to proceed with development. Why wait until then to admit that they don't belong in racecars unless it's a electric motor only series.

F1 should run cars at closer to 1000 pounds again and with half (maybe a third) of the downforce they currently have. Leave the tire sizes they have (I love the look) but run one compound that lasts approximately 1/3 of the race distance. The drop the electric motor and go back to NA motors of 3-4 liters again or what ever would produce 700-800 Hp. Mandating no more than 1 refuel per race and a rev limit would get them their reliability and you would have Ford, Porsche, Renault, Toyota, Honda, Ferrari, Mercedes and maybe a couple other's back in 2-3 years.

IndyCar on the other hand needs to find a way to run their cars on 1.5 mile tracks. That's where the fans are. But I suspect that a huge reduction in downforce and a harder tire would be required to prevent them from running flat out all the way around. Maybe make them run the superspeed way package but one way or another they need to brake for the corners.
 
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