Brembo brake upgrade - thoughts?

So what's the deal with the Brembo brake upgrade - is it worth it? In no way slighting the pricing - it is what it is - I'm just curious to see whether it's a $6K option worth splurging for. I'm considering building the kit and it would be a "mostly street on weekends plus some track days from time to time" kind of a build, so I wanted to get your thoughts on adding this option. Worth it? What kind of performance difference do you really get when going with the upgraded brakes?

Your candid feedback is highly appreciated!

Thanks,

Tim
 
I would say for your use profile the ''stock'' chevy / brembo setup supplied with the car would do the job nicely. If I had that setup I'd spend the money on some quality two piece hat and rotors to take weight off the corners and provide improved braking performance.

The cost of the upgraded brembos make them a track only item IMO.
 
The 6k upgrade will look nice! But the right brake pads and some RBF600 fluid for a track day outing will suffice if you dont intend on racing the car every month in a competitve series. Basically, as a street car, you'll probably never get to the point of driving it on the limit at the track, as 12 times a year is just not enough.

The wilwood polymatrix 'A' pad is an affordable pad that can double as a daily driver. Noisy, dusty, but works from cold and held up longer than the DS3000's. The fluid I mentioned doesn't last very long before it gets watery though.
 
I have the upgraded Brembo's.

Are they worth it? To me they were because that is what I wanted. I intend to track the car as much as I drive it on the street.

Are they necessary? No. The standard brakes Fran supplies, especially the newer version, are more than sufficient for anything except pure endurance race car duty.

The upgraded Brembo's are not racing brakes, those are a different animal. These are basically the Gran Tourismo brakes offered as an upgrade to Corvettes and the like.

Are they better than the standard brakes. Given the same situation, i.e. 800 hp + 2400 lbs. + sticky rubber = massive speed to scrub for 20-30 minute durations, the answer would be yes. No doubt they will make the last braking zone feel like the first one much easier and efficiently than the standard setupand give you longer rotor and pad life in the process. That said, when the time does come to replace rotors/pads, they will be more expensive to replace.
 
I also got in touch with Fran and his suggestion is to just upgrade the pads on the regular brakes which would make them more than sufficient, like Aaron says. And that's not at all a must-do either, so I'd likely just do that when it's time for new brakes or if I'm really starting to do a lot of tracking.

Having seen the braking in Cam's SLC with the older standard brakes, I could only see how brakes are an issue deep into a track session once they heat up. Sounds like an upgrade down the road if I really need it.

I definitely agree with the optics arguments though. For sure to each his own. You have to build these for what you love and can't let others knock your choices.

Tim
 
Incidentally, you can buy the basic four and six piston brembos used (often off of a porsche) very inexpensively.... The basic caliper of the std four and six piston caliper doesn't vary too much except that the piston diameters do vary (so you need to crunch some numbers to get the rough fore/aft balance) and then use a biasing mechanism of some sort to fine tune it. I bought the front and rear brembos off a 993 for $500 bucks and sometime will engineer the mounting of these as an extended project.....
 
I also got in touch with Fran and his suggestion is to just upgrade the pads on the regular brakes which would make them more than sufficient, like Aaron says. And that's not at all a must-do either, so I'd likely just do that when it's time for new brakes or if I'm really starting to do a lot of tracking.

Having seen the braking in Cam's SLC with the older standard brakes, I could only see how brakes are an issue deep into a track session once they heat up. Sounds like an upgrade down the road if I really need it.

I definitely agree with the optics arguments though. For sure to each his own. You have to build these for what you love and can't let others knock your choices.

Tim, Dot 4 fluid was my mistake. on a hot tx track day, fluid boil was a drag/really dangerous. when i went to dot 5 fluid, not an issue. I put the EBC red pads on it and ive never seen a production porsche/ferrari /lambo that can out-brake this car. unless they go to aftermarket. And ive got the old willwoods with small swept area.
 
Tim, Dot 4 fluid was my mistake. on a hot tx track day, fluid boil was a drag/really dangerous. when i went to dot 5 fluid, not an issue. I put the EBC red pads on it and ive never seen a production porsche/ferrari /lambo that can out-brake this car. unless they go to aftermarket. And ive got the old willwoods with small swept area.

Cam, I assume you meant DOT 5.1, not regular DOT 5, which is a silicone formula that does not have the lubricity of the earlier formulations, and because it does not absorb moisture, tends to be associated with more corrosion in the system. It is also subject to aeration, and does not yield as hard a pedal as the glycol-based fluids.
 
Hey Cam,

I worded that ambiguously, sorry. I meant it positively in that I don't see the regular brakes to be an issue for tracking, non-endurance racing applications and as you state, there are ways to work around it with fluid an pads.

We switched our little Honda CRX Lemons crapcan over to DOT 5.1 (I believe) for hot races this summer and it made a significant difference.

I mainly really like the idea of not spending another $6k. :)

Tim
 
FYI, I can get some custom made premium pads by Cobalt that we have had a lot of success with in GRAND-AM and World Challenge. I bet with those pads, and even stock calipers you will have enough braking power/no fade for most people.
I have delt with a few customers of mine that have 600rwhp 3600lb vipers, and the stock brakes just do NOT work. With these pads, they DO make 30min sprint races with out a problem.
 

Fran Hall RCR

GT40s Sponsor
Jordon,

we have a deal with Carbotech for 2012....looking forward to trying some of their pads too....any experience with them??

We ran with Performance friction 01 and 83 pads this season.
 
I have heard good things about carbotech, but I have not personal experience.

We tested a lot with Pagid, Performance Friction and Cobalt. Cobalt and Pagid proved to the the best performers, but Cobalt was more cost effective.

The Pagids tended to "cermicatize"(made up word) when they sat around between events. Basically oxidation, and they became junk. the Cobalts had as good feel, better customer service and were WAY less sensitive to being exposed to oxygen after a heat cycle.

We are tough on pads, big power big weight. the SL-C (superlite).. is probably a lot easier on pads.

We worked hard on initial bite of the pad for two reason 1) power brakes make it hard to soften the intial hit 2) Once ABS hits (we use the Bosch race ABS) it starts pounding the pads, and you want the initial torque to be such that it doesnt start another cycle of ABS.

tuning pad compounds is different (and easier) on a "proper" non power braked car :) You usually want to tune more aggressively on initial bite (high wheel speed = lots of inertia to slow down) then you want the pad to trail off a little.

Also, if you have high-range tire temp sensors, aim them sometime at the rotor under braking. You can tell how much your calipers are flexing by how linear the temp gradient is across the rotor.
 

Fran Hall RCR

GT40s Sponsor
We do exactly that ...high initial bite and better "off pedal" modulation.

We are changing the brake system from 2012 and upsizing everything....my goal for 2011 was to run a very conservative set up and have headroom to breathe for 2012...and thats exactly what we did and we are going to do.

Thansk for the insight into Pagid and Cobalt.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Fran, So what would be recommended for my car. It has the original Wilwood 6 pots all the way around and the 1 piece rotors (corvette?). At a min I would like to change the rotors to a two piece type. The diameters seam OK but the widths should be at least 1 1/4. Just looking at the rear, it doesn't look like a thicker rotor can be fitted. The inside rotor face is too close to the upright. I was thinking a conversion to radial mount rear calipers so that I can move them outboard 3/8 inch of so. This would allow space for a 1 1/4 inch width rotor with plenty of room to spare, both wheel and upright.

The fronts are located fine. A swap to a nice thick 2 piece seams to be the best way to go. Anybody have some part numbers. Wilwood pieces would be my first choice. Curved vane HD's and alum hats.

How about the balance? Do the piston sizes work for you guys as delivered? If I switch to radial mounts at the rear, then I am thinking 4 pot forged superlite. If the rear standard piston area is OK then I can simply convert to a 4 pot with the same piston area and be close. At least I think so. How about masters? Anybody have sizes for them yet?

Fran, I know the development of the car has come a long way since I took delivery of mine. Do you recommend any particular setup that would include a 2 piece rotor all the way around?. I will be running 30 min sprints for our purpose here, about a dozen hard laps at a time 5 times a day. I want to get to under 2 Min's at thunder-hill. So you can judge my pace from that. That would be about 6 or 7 sec slower than #18 give or take.
 
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Fran Hall RCR

GT40s Sponsor
The brakes you have will be exceptional ....there is absolutely no need to change the calipers at all....what do you feel you would benefit from installing radial calipers.??....thats a massive amounts of work...far more than you may think.

One of the reasons we changed over to the Brembos is for the dust seal requirements for overseas DM/DOT tests...not because the Wilwoods did not perform...they were great and I had them on my personal SLC for three years with no issues...

You have brakes that will exceed your expectations as is...and are balanced as a set.
I recommend 1 inch masters for the rear and 7/8th for the front...this will give you a firm pedal feel....as a real race car should be...wink.

We used DTC60 AND DTC70 brake pads on track with my Wilwood shod SLC...

Wilwood has two piece rotors available....Toby has them as does Will....your car should come in at around 2400lbs...the rotors you have were a factory upgrade size for a production car weighing over a 1000lbs more....if any change were to be made...DO NOT install drilled rotors...slotted only is better and cryo treating them makes a difference for longevity too.

You may well be over thinking yourself here Howard.....

Keep in mind that the #18 has run 1.45 with issues in the dry and 1.52 in the pouring rain.....talking to Rick McCormick, he says a 1.41 should be doable....so your goal is a little more than 7 secs slower than the #18...I also think you will be running way under your 2 min. bogey without any trouble...
 
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Jim Pearson

Lifetime Supporter
FYI, I can get some custom made premium pads by Cobalt that we have had a lot of success with in GRAND-AM and World Challenge. I bet with those pads, and even stock calipers you will have enough braking power/no fade for most people.
I have delt with a few customers of mine that have 600rwhp 3600lb vipers, and the stock brakes just do NOT work. With these pads, they DO make 30min sprint races with out a problem.

Hi Jordan,

Are Cobalt still in business? Their website http://www.cobaltfriction.com seems to list nothing newer than 2009, download link inactive, etc.

I'm currently using Pagids. They're great at speed but the 'bedded-in' transfer layer wears off very quickly during town driving - at which point there's little low-speed braking performance.

Quote from Cobalt's webpage: "...Cobalt Friction's XR-Series Carbon-Ceramic friction composites represent a significant advancement in the evolution of motorsports brake pad technology. The XR-Series materials have unparalleled consistency and friction stability over the broadest operating temperature range in the industry (50°F to over 1600°F). Furthermore, unlike traditional resin-based compounds, Cobalt XR-Series friction composites do not require bedding/burnishing to achieve optimal performance, and exhibit consistent performance throughout the life of the pad..."

That would appear to overcome the difficulty I'm experiencing with the Pagids - your comments would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jim
 
Jim,
I can assure you Cobalt is alive and well- I am a dealer for them. Well, i was a customer, then a dealer.. now that I sold my brick and motar business I still maintain a relationship with them because I supply off the shelf and custom Cobalt compounds to 4-5 teams, I my consulting company still handles the engineering company for them.

To answer your question- the Cobalts are much less sensitive to bedding. We have started a 3hr GRAND-AM race on brand new rotors/pads with nothing more than the warm up lap to bed them. The worked great. Exepect about 10% longer brake life with properly bedded pads, BUT THAT IS IT.

I have 2 customers that drive a pretty aggressive Cobalt compound I worked out for them on the STREET, and other than dust and noise they stop like crazy. Also expect rotor wear to be higher during street (cool pad) use. Stopping power will be more than sufficient however.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Good news Fran. I intend to run the 1 piece rotors until I get the car done and setup. Then convert to 2 piece Wilwoods. I will eventually need to work them out and if you or other already have a list of part numbers, then cool it will save me some work.

Looking at the rears, it appears that in order to run a wider rotor that the .85 that is on the car, such as a 1.25 wilwood, I would need to move the rotor outboard at least 0.25. With the existing caliper mount this isn't possible. So I was thinking about a radial mount at the rear so I could move the caliper outboard. But if it isn't needed, then GOOD!

The 2 min boogie is what it will take to stay in contact with the guys running old NASCAR's and generally run near the front of the fast group and not be in the way. Ultimately I would like to pass them at will............ we'll see if I am up to it, I am pretty sure the car will be.

Merry Chrismas, buddy
 
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