Craft Performance engine knock

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Joel K

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Chris,

Does the Holley sniper have it’s own tune and timing setting independent of the setting used on the Dyno? Based on what I read the timing and tune are part of the Sniper package.
 
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Neil

Supporter
From the Holley Sniper webpage:

"Integrated ignition timing control & coil driver" Hmmm.....
 
Chris,

Does the Holley sniper have it’s own tune and timing setting independent of the setting used on the Dyno? Based on what I read the timing and tune are par of the Sniper package.
Sniper is basicly a simplyfiet Megascuirt progammable injection system. You fill in some parameters and Sniper starts calculating a base map for Fuel Table, Injector dead time, Fuel VE table etc. It has an autolearn feature. It can control ignition too.
These systems do not run out of the box. They run multiple sensors, engine temp, Air temp, airflow, throttle position, rpm and use a Lambda sensor for reference only.
The Snipers parameters are developed for a front engined car, not for a rear engined GT40 where the environment is a little bit harsh. Theres fine tune required here.
 
This is why I run an AFR gauge in my GT40 (and other cars).
You see whats happening and it can save you from destroying an engine.
It gives you even the oportunity to fine tune your fuel system, carb or injection.
 

Ian Clark

Supporter
Chris, Neil offered how best to approach to the engine builder on post#14

"I'd approach Lance at Craft Performance with that dyno sheet in hand and ask him (not demand- things can go downhill in a hurry) why the numbers are so far off. Something was not right during that test and the engine should not have been delivered to you in that condition. Maybe if you try working with him he will see that his engine was not running properly and that he should rebuild it and show that it is functioning normally on his dyno."

If that bridge has been burnt and several other parties have had hands on that engine (including yours) you will have a very difficult time to get satisfaction from the vendor.

Find a way to turn down the heat, maybe you can get to a less expensive solution. Perhaps offering to participate in the cost of the inspection and rebuild will not only give you a proper running motor, it's likely your least expensive option at this time.

It's a complicated and unfortunate situation, hopefully it gets resolved soon.

Ian
 

Chris

Supporter
It’s a tricky one but I’d say both parties may have a hand in this.

As mentioned above that dyno graph has questionable readings which need to be clarified.
If it was just their dyno carb etc then they wouldn’t have tuned it they’d have just given it a break/bed in and run it up to make sure no leaks and issues. However it should still be safe and those readings don’t seem to line up with that idea.

But . . . You can’t just install an engine that has had new parts fitted - especially EFI and not have it tuned? A sniper has self learning but it has to be base set up and parameters specified etc otherwise it’s just guessing between certain predetermined values, they’re also quite hit and miss from what I’ve heard. Was the engine installer experienced in older engines or just a handy mechanic?

You need to keep things friendly with whoever you’re going to deal with regarding it. As technically neither would be able to offer any warranty as parts were changed and not tuned and the garage were only physically fitting it.
 
So if engine damage is due to lean mixture, noise ( knock) should have been heard right from first start up after fitting in car.. You say it occurred after about 140 miles and on your own carb which was not on engine for dyno run. and 40deg timing was also discovered after or during that 140 miles. Im now wondering if the dyno runs at Craft were intended as power runs or simply a quick check after run in time especially with the replacement of carb for your own. If it was an effort to obtain best power readings there would/should be multiple runs & changes to Jetting & Timing.
Craft just sent over the one dyno run. Engine then was installed by another shop whom apparently didn't check the timing. After driving about 140 miles I then started it next morning and herd slight knock only cylinder 1. Third shop came into play here and took off the oil pan and discovered burnt up piston and mention timing was at 40.
 
It’s a tricky one but I’d say both parties may have a hand in this.

As mentioned above that dyno graph has questionable readings which need to be clarified.
If it was just their dyno carb etc then they wouldn’t have tuned it they’d have just given it a break/bed in and run it up to make sure no leaks and issues. However it should still be safe and those readings don’t seem to line up with that idea.

But . . . You can’t just install an engine that has had new parts fitted - especially EFI and not have it tuned? A sniper has self learning but it has to be base set up and parameters specified etc otherwise it’s just guessing between certain predetermined values, they’re also quite hit and miss from what I’ve heard. Was the engine installer experienced in older engines or just a handy mechanic?

You need to keep things friendly with whoever you’re going to deal with regarding it. As technically neither would be able to offer any warranty as parts were changed and not tuned and the garage were only physically fitting it.
The installation shop was a hot rod shop. Many resto cars on their garage floor. Both parties know I'm unexperenced and looking for 100% help and guidance. Craft Performance I've been trying best to keep calm and be friendly but the guy is full of excuses and bad advice. Owner himself Lance at craft Performance told me to do my own preload knowing I don't even know what a preload is. Also told me to do 1 and half turns on each rocker. Which ended up not even letting the engine turn over. I then immediately knew he was wrong and backed then all to half turn.
 
I did also fail to mention this what I mentioned above kinda off topic but probably new problem. Lance Smith owner craft Performance after knowing about the knocking told me to do a preload. No idea what a preload is I told him and he said everyone should know how to do it so I YouTube it and I 0 lash and half turn all rockers. Still knocks I tell craft Performance. He then advised me to do 1 full turn on all the rockers putting them at 1 and half turns. I tell him are you sure. Shop whom installed engine said was bad idea but Lance at craft was sure of it. In the end it was terrible advice to give me. Engine wouldn't even turn over. I backed them all to 1 turn and it was blowing smoke. Lance said that was okay let it run. I ignored his advice and backed them to half turn then never touched it after. Probably caused more damage I was thinking. I believe I have this phone call recorded but not sure if I can post it or would do any good. With all my experiences with this guy very difficult to take him serious and not be angry how much he's costing me.
 
A few of the warranty conditions etc that I took from the CPE website that I think could void any warranty.... You had a third party dismantle part of the engine, 'Remove oil pan' , CPE recommend Joe Gibbs oil etc., Engines are shipped dry without oil, you or your chosen 3rd party are to fill Pre -Prime & check oil pressure ( they would likely need to remove distributor to do that- this is possibly where your 40 deg of timing crept in. CPE also go into detail as to how to set ign timing with both versions of timing lights in use these days. I dont know what sort of time frame is involved here, but any long term storage prior to engine installation over 6 month's requires some extra precautions in regard to valve lash etc. ( remove all rockers so that all valves are closed for example )
 
You know, for someone who only joined the website [email protected] 3:32 am And its now 6:10pm the following day your up to 33 posts, wont tell us what sort of car or who really did what... what's really going on here??? That dyno sheet was last year on 20th Dec 2020, we are nearly 9 months down the track. Dont mean to offend, but without some real data etc we are all guessing!
Touching the engine was all approved by the engine builder. He approved me to touch it and another shop to examin it. Thay dyno sheet is old because it shops in California have 4month plus waiting times. It's when craft in Arkansas dyno it. Engine still had to. He shipped, sat in a box waiting for me to fund the installation then got on a shop waiting list
 
I'll repeat what I believe to be the timeline then..
1. Engine was dynoed at CPE with CPE shop carb, timing @ 36deg. Oil & fluids drained for shipment? (CPE policy).
2. Spent ~4 month's in box awaiting time slot in California.
3. CPE policy is to ship dry as above, presume California Hot Rod shop were to refill with oil etc and prime oil system, check pressure. In order to do that they must have removed distributor to prime and check pressure of relief valve. They would then have to run engine to set ign timing, remember the dizzy has been out, this is where I believe your ign timing ended up @ 40deg.
4. In amongst all this you manage to put 140 miles on the car with a Holley Sniper induction system which also controls the ign system.
5. In amongst all that you have had contact with CPE and somehow a decision is made to check the valve lash/preload, you attempt that yourself to the point where you reach coil bind or use up all the valve to piston clearance available and are possibly looking at further damage. Not sure how/why you reached that conclusion as the sound of a loose rocker/valve lash is quite different to a piston knock, presuming you were trying to describe the noise by phone.
6. Its an old conundrum in this case, learn to do it yourself or pay someone who really knows their stuff. That's about all I can say given the limited info provided.
 
I'll repeat what I believe to be the timeline then..
1. Engine was dynoed at CPE with CPE shop carb, timing @ 36deg. Oil & fluids drained for shipment? (CPE policy).
2. Spent ~4 month's in box awaiting time slot in California.
3. CPE policy is to ship dry as above, presume California Hot Rod shop were to refill with oil etc and prime oil system, check pressure. In order to do that they must have removed distributor to prime and check pressure of relief valve. They would then have to run engine to set ign timing, remember the dizzy has been out, this is where I believe your ign timing ended up @ 40deg.
4. In amongst all this you manage to put 140 miles on the car with a Holley Sniper induction system which also controls the ign system.
5. In amongst all that you have had contact with CPE and somehow a decision is made to check the valve lash/preload, you attempt that yourself to the point where you reach coil bind or use up all the valve to piston clearance available and are possibly looking at further damage. Not sure how/why you reached that conclusion as the sound of a loose rocker/valve lash is quite different to a piston knock, presuming you were trying to describe the noise by phone.
6. Its an old conundrum in this case, learn to do it yourself or pay someone who really knows their stuff. That's about all I can say given the limited info provided.
I can't determine the difference in sound. I sent the engine builder the gopro video and he suggested preload idea. He also broke the engine in at his shop with his dyno graph reading showing a/f ratio 14+. I'm just in middle not knowing if this issue was caused by engine builder running super rich on the break in or the hot rod shop not checking the timing sending me on my way with 40 degrees.
 
I would suggest that the key to the a/f ratio is due to the break in procedure, on the the dyno, manually controlled part throttle medium load for an extended time rather than a simple run it thru the full RPM range at full load. 14/1 af is lean-not rich- that is why others were suggesting an A/F ratio of 12.5/1 would be prefered. 14/1 however could be expected in a light throttle cruise mode, but obviously cause damage under full load and full throttle. Have another look @ the dyno pint out, @ 5800RPM, the AF has got to 20.5/1 and BSFC has dropped to 0.228, at a guess this is due to a throttle & load reduction as the operator finish's up the run in period, but I was not there!!! I presume from previous comments that the 'Knock' was not present at initial start up, but made itself known during or after the 140 mile time frame. If thats the case then whomever set the ign timing after installation in the 'invisible' car might have some explaining to do. That person might have an 'out' as the Sniper system apparently some form of self learn/ adjustability with regard to timing, so with the 40deg mentioned at a later stage who knows what the engine had to deal with during the 140 miles.

Thats it, Im out! Gettin too old to be a mind reader.
 
I would suggest that the key to the a/f ratio is due to the break in procedure, on the the dyno, manually controlled part throttle medium load for an extended time rather than a simple run it thru the full RPM range at full load. 14/1 af is lean-not rich- that is why others were suggesting an A/F ratio of 12.5/1 would be prefered. 14/1 however could be expected in a light throttle cruise mode, but obviously cause damage under full load and full throttle. Have another look @ the dyno pint out, @ 5800RPM, the AF has got to 20.5/1 and BSFC has dropped to 0.228, at a guess this is due to a throttle & load reduction as the operator finish's up the run in period, but I was not there!!! I presume from previous comments that the 'Knock' was not present at initial start up, but made itself known during or after the 140 mile time frame. If thats the case then whomever set the ign timing after installation in the 'invisible' car might have some explaining to do. That person might have an 'out' as the Sniper system apparently some form of self learn/ adjustability with regard to timing, so with the 40deg mentioned at a later stage who knows what the engine had to deal with during the 140 miles.

Thats it, Im out! Gettin too old to be a mind reader.
I'll be calling the shop that installed this engine in the morning to ask him about the timing. Why it was at 40 and not at 34. How could it have changed if they did check it and what proof do they have of checking it. Invoice didn't show them checking timing.
 
I'll be calling the shop that installed this engine in the morning to ask him about the timing. Why it was at 40 and not at 34. How could it have changed if they did check it and what proof do they have of checking it. Invoice didn't show them checking timing.
I know, I said I was done. You need to get a bit clever as to how you ask questions etc... you have an invoice, does it show where they changed oil, primed/checked oil pressure as CPE suggest on their shipping policy, did you give them the CPE info, was it packed in the crate/box, Did the shop even do any of the things on CPE's check list. Did you advise them of it? If they were not advised of the check list then they were flying solo on the whole deal!
 
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