Engine question

[TimB]

Fran or anybody for that matter. Has anyone used one of Ford's modular V-8's in an RCR yet? I did a search and didn't see anything. It's entirely possible the package would be too wide however they are relatively short packages since they were origionally designed for FWD configs. Just curious and would love to see a build page if someone has sorted this

Tim

 

[Brian Hamilton]

The Modular V8's from Ford are big wide heavy monsters. If I recall correctly, they weigh in the same as the old Big Blocks and are just as wide. Yeah, they have some great new technology with the availability of DOHC and all that, but they get quite expensive. I'm pretty sure they'll fit and I'm sure Fran has installed a few, but for my money and tastes, I'd go with the ol' pushrod V8.

Just my $.02 though.

 

[Cliff Beer]

It's quite big.....

 

[TimB]

Thanks for the overlay of the 4V. I was thinking it might have some advantages like it's lack of low end torque being easier on a transaxle plus they are smooth, reliable and like to rev. I wonder if the 2 or 3 valve variant is significantly narrower? It would appear from your pic that a bump into the cabin for the waterpump might not be necesary with it. I'm guessing headers might be the biggest challenge

 

[John Milmont]

A Buddy of mine has the 4V engine in his FF cobra; he says he really likes the engines linear/smooth power band, making the car easier to drive fast. But, these engines are really expensive to make big hp from. Few people make parts for these, and the ones that do are big $$$$...

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Yeah, like cams going for $400 each, and there's 4 of them. The 2V and 3V variants don't really narrow up too much more my friend. If you're looking for a narrow small motor, stick with the SBF.

 

[dean]

hi cliff, can you overlay the 460 engine if you have it. thanks

 

[Jac Mac]

hi cliff, can you overlay the 460 engine if you have it. thanks

Dont think there was a '385' overlay for that diagram, but add approx 1/2" to height/width & 1" to length of FE ( green) outline for a close estimate.

 

[J. Salmon]

Thanks for the overlay of the 4V. I was thinking it might have some advantages like it's lack of low end torque being easier on a transaxle plus they are smooth, reliable and like to rev. I wonder if the 2 or 3 valve variant is significantly narrower? It would appear from your pic that a bump into the cabin for the waterpump might not be necesary with it. I'm guessing headers might be the biggest challenge

Tim, I am certainly not the guru to talk to (there are plenty here for sure) but I think cam choice and other matching goodies are all you need to build a motor that revs a bit with a sacrifice in low end torque. Now, I am not talking 9k all day (like Dean and Ron's motors) unless you want to pay (hey... that rhymes!) but then you are not going to get that out of a mod motor either. Spend enough time looking at the facts, and you wonder why they make cam motors at all (and this is coming from a Ferrari nut).

 

[John Milmont]

I bet the only way to make any power from a mod motor without selling the farm is to put a super charger on it.... wait a minute, i think thats been done!:lipsrsealed:

 

[dennism]

Tim
Ford sells a factory stock Modular Competition Engine for about $14000 that puts out around 430hp, supposedly not for street use though
You might want to look it up on theie factory engine site
It's used in a lot of competition Mustangs
I can't remember his name but he wrote a book on modifying these engines and also sells modifdied engines and parts
I'll try to find his name and site
Hope this helps, it's a nice engine
Dennis

 

[Jim Cowden]

Tim
Ford sells a factory stock Modular Competition Engine for about $14000 that puts out around 430hp, supposedly not for street use though
You might want to look it up on theie factory engine site
It's used in a lot of competition Mustangs
I can't remember his name but he wrote a book on modifying these engines and also sells modifdied engines and parts
I'll try to find his name and site
Hope this helps, it's a nice engine
Dennis

Sean Hyland is the name you are looking for.

They are big,It is a nice motor but it sucks up a lot of space.
The exhaust is a mission around the chassis at heads.
The engine is tall due to alternator in the valley this makes it a squeeze around the rear window.
This is an RF but diamentionally their will be similarity's.

Jim

Jim

 

[Gordon Levy]

The 4V engine is not only big but it is heavy. A complete 4V cobra engine weights 620lbs, that's about 50lbs lighter than an iron FE.
The main issues related to the engine is how do you want to use it. As a stock or near stock street engine they are OK. As a track or race engine they are not. There are real oiling issues as well as thrust bearing issues related to the 4 piece trust bearing and the flex in the block when driven hard over a long period of time.
many of these issues were corrected in the 5.0 cammer engine. The best way to build a track version is to start with a Hyland block and build from scratch and dry sump it.
The good thing about the engine is if you do build from scrathc with high quality parts you can have an engine that will make 600hp and rev comfortably to 9500 revs and make power all the way there. This would be a $20K+ engine though.

 

[Garry]

Gordon, Thanks for providing more information on this matter. You are the man!
Garry:bow:

 

[John Milmont]

The 4V engine is not only big but it is heavy. A complete 4V cobra engine weights 620lbs, that's about 50lbs lighter than an iron FE.
The main issues related to the engine is how do you want to use it. As a stock or near stock street engine they are OK. As a track or race engine they are not. There are real oiling issues as well as thrust bearing issues related to the 4 piece trust bearing and the flex in the block when driven hard over a long period of time.
many of these issues were corrected in the 5.0 cammer engine. The best way to build a track version is to start with a Hyland block and build from scratch and dry sump it.
The good thing about the engine is if you do build from scrathc with high quality parts you can have an engine that will make 600hp and rev comfortably to 9500 revs and make power all the way there. This would be a $20K+ engine though.

I had no idea that those motors have that flex issue. This all makes sense now... When the supercharged cobra came out there were saying that they had to go to the iron block because the aluminum one was not strong enough. I had no idea why that was, it must have been this flex issue.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Yeah that's it. Now, what's really going to get you is that the Ford GT's engine block is aluminum, whereas the Shelby GT500's block is iron. Where is the flex issue there? I believe they engineered the Ford GT engine to cure that problem but just threw in the old iron 5.4 block for the GT500's. The mod-motors make decent power eventually, but they are far from inexpensive to do so. Naturally Aspirated, you're not going to make an astonishing amount of power. Turbo or supercharge it, and wow what a difference!!!

 

[Jac Mac]

Yeah that's it. Now, what's really going to get you is that the Ford GT's engine block is aluminum, whereas the Shelby GT500's block is iron. Where is the flex issue there? I believe they engineered the Ford GT engine to cure that problem but just threw in the old iron 5.4 block for the GT500's. The mod-motors make decent power eventually, but they are far from inexpensive to do so. Naturally Aspirated, you're not going to make an astonishing amount of power. Turbo or supercharge it, and wow what a difference!!!

Not sure that I would go along with that thinking- there were not all that many GT's built & the typical GT owner probably wouldnt give the engine a 'really' hard workout, however the GT500 owners are greater in number and much more likely to drive it like they stole it, therefore the potential warranty claims are a concern, in fact that could be the reason for the short GT production run, maybe the warranty thing killed it!

 

[John Milmont]

I get the feeling that the block in the GT is a newer generation, probably like the 'cammer' motor that has these problems fixed...

 

[Gordon Levy]

The engine block in the Ford GT is not the same production block as the 4.6Cobra engine. There are no parts that are interchangable. The 5.4 GT engine was all new from the ground up. Just like the 5.0 Cammer shares almost nothing with the standard 4V engine.
You can certainly buy one of these engines for your car and the earlier issues with the production engine aren't a concern.
The issue I believe is with everything driven off the noce of the crank and the 4 piece thrust bearing/washer, at high revs or high stress it's pulling up and forward on the crank causing the engine block to deform a little. Mind you it only takes .020"-.050" of distortion to wreak havac with the internals.
The facts that I stated are no big secret. For years friends of mine worked at Bondurants and I used to hear and see all the Cobra engines that they had to replace on a very regular basis. Even now, I was involved with a Miller Cup road race mustang with the current production 3 valve engine. It is a sealed engine series. Every weekend Ford engineers were going around and measuring the end play of the cranks. There were a few guys that went through 3 or 4 engines for the 8 race series. Pretty much everyone did replace an engine at some point, mostly because the engineers started saying there was to much end play in cranks. That kinda tells me it's still an issue.
I see many guys trailering home from the track with blown 4V engines. Even though the thrust bearing issues are bad the stock oiling issues are much worse.

 

[WesS]

tim,

fran put a 4.6 in my gt40 when it was at his shop. way too big. manifold won't fit. heads were so big, the frame would have to be modified so the exhaust could be installed, etc.
i will look back on the forum for pictures he sent be before he took it out...oh well.
pm me if you want the photos.

wes