Fire Systems...

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Just got my order in for a Safecraft fire system (www.safecraft.com), and asking some questions of the folks at Safecraft got some interesting information on the Halon 1211, 1301 and the newer FE36 agents. I have an older 10lb system with 1211 which as I recall he said was the better agent at the time for a few reasons that sounded good but not at all environmentally friendly, and most all of it is recycled from old computer room halon system.

In talking with them about placement in the GT40 my concern was heat if placed in the under front hood area. He quickly chimed in that 1211 and FE36 were the best for that as the boiling point was 200F and that the 1301 was only 140F. So if in a HOT area, skip 1301. I'm assuming that is under pressure as delivered.

As for agents performance the best was 1211 for a given volume, both the other agents need 10-20% more agent for the same supression (he said roughly). 1211 was more expensive then 1301, didn't check on FE36. One note is that for sanctioned events the sanctioning bodies are looking towards FE36 as environmentally friendly while still doing a good job.

I ended up with a 10lb RS manual pull with 1211 Halon, 3 nozzle system

Sandy
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
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I'm not so certain that the only source for 1211 is old computer room systems.

More info on the different formulations of Halon can be found here;
Haloalkane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FWIW - I typically only plumb in 2 nozzles in most cars. One in the passenger compartment - typically in the vicinity of the driver's fet and the other at the point where the fuel line and engine meet (carb or injection system). Most racecars have a good fuel cell system and are separated from the passenger compartment by a bulkhead - this puts the fuel outside the car's passenger containment envelope. Remeber that by plumbing in 3 discharge nozzles, you cut your discharge time by 1/3. My rule of thumb is to put the supressant where it's needed the most for the longest possible duration.

Halon 1211 and it's acceptance by sanctioning bodies;
I would check into this as I recall there was (at one time) a deadline for removal of the 1211 systems by the SCCA and maybe others. This was back in the late 90's as I recall. Not sure why as it is a fine suppressant ..

Not sure if this helps you or not Sandy - but it's what I do..
 
Did you give any consideration to an aqueous foam system? I have one in my car. The nice thing about this system is that is also cools down whatever it hits. I hope I never have to use it though
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
From what I understood 1211 may only be manufactured for military use now a days, but I may be mistaken. When I got my first system many years ago he mentioned that one of the best sources (not really the only I'm sure) was large data centers that had 100's of lbs of halon for their suppression systems. In actuality I guess I have used halon :). They do reprocesses it I think through some kind of membrane filter, but don't know much more about it then that. The big reason that it's not used is that it is not friendly to the environment and as such not manufactured anymore much like leaded gasoline :(

BillD, I did look at them, and was really not sure on how well they work. I guess they likely will do better in a under hood high heat environment since I'm guessing it has lots of water, but as for Halon vs. AQFF, I don't know pro/cons on fire suppression but one thing I had heard was that clean up is a bit messy, but if you had to use it I'm guessing that would be the least problem you might have. Another reason I did go with the Safecraft and 1211 was that since I did have one of the other systems it is always nice to have duplicates of the same hardware just in case.

Sandy
 
Halon snufs out a fire because replaces all the oxygen so if you fire it off in a passenger compartment I would not want to be in there.

Regards
 

Randy V

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Halon snufs out a fire because replaces all the oxygen so if you fire it off in a passenger compartment I would not want to be in there.

Regards

I've been in there (Cabin) when the Halon was discharged. Faint odor but nothing noxious. It's not like instant drowning due to lack of air - it would take you a number of minutes to experience any real trouble from Halon..
The better part of using a gas vs foam is that you can see through the gas to get the car stopped and get out. You can't see through the foam as it is in your eyes, mouth and everywhere else in a big hurry..

Make mine Halon please..
 

Malcolm

Supporter
Halon is now banned in UK for fire supression systems. The agent used now is AFFF.

Hope no-one ever has to use their system and they pure pose value only!
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Malcolm,
Banned? I think not. rockonsmile
I think you are talking about Srutineering /RAC rules etc., and so on?
This topic was exhaustively discussed a couple of years back.
I don't get involved in competition and I have a 7.5 kg Halon and nobody can tell me that I can't. :pepper:

I bought a Halon extinguisher for my garage in 2006.
Dave;)
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Randy,
You cannot survive in a Halon filled cabin. You have as long as you can hold your breath as useful consciousness to get out.
Any fire will have gone out in that compartment but the heat remains.
Dave ;)
 

Randy V

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Randy,
You cannot survive in a Halon filled cabin. You have as long as you can hold your breath as useful consciousness to get out.
Any fire will have gone out in that compartment but the heat remains.
Dave ;)

Dave - I'm not disagreeing with you regarding halon in the cabin but I have been there with a Corvette I was racing in Production class with a wiring fire.. Note that in a racecar we don't run with the windows rolled up. I was just shifting to 4th gear (around 140 mph) when the cabin started filling with smoke. I checked traffic, pulled driver's right started braking quickly but not overly hard as you don't know what the source of smoke is (may be oil that you are driving through) and pulled the discharge handle as the smoke started really rolling good. It took less than 30 seconds to get stopped, un-harnessed and out of the car from the time I discharged the firebottle.. I grabbed the master switch on my way out the door..
As soon as I had hit the master switch, the fire stopped.

A cracked header had blown hot exhaust gasses on the positive battery cable to the starter which caused it to burn through the plastic insulation and allowed it to short against the steel tube that the cable passed through that was supposed to protect the cable from the heat of the exhaust.

My point was that there was air still in the cabin. In my opinion - Halon does a great job of evacuating oxygen but it won't kill you if you breath it. Certainly if you don't get some air within a number of minutes, you'll start suffering from hypoxia, but it's not instantaneous.

Now this is all said and understood in regard to competition cars. Street cars may be another subject entirely and I certainly don't consider myself to be an expert when it comes to that.
 

Rune

Supporter
Why not use Water look here, Fogmaker International AB
It is very effective and no harm to people or equipment . It is replacing halon in the world wide offshore business and it have a cooling effect witch halon does not have
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Rune -

I think you posted this a while ago. I think for petroleum it reads like this -

Besides water, the extinguishing agent also contains antifreeze and AFFF, a foam maker which is a very effective extinguishing agent for fire in petrol, diesel or oils.
Besides that, where can I get it at a racing supply shop or otherwise easy to get supplier. It does look interesting, but expensive ???

Sandy
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Thanks Randy.
With windows down or no windows, great, but in an enclosed GT40 I would be intent on rapid egress and not inhaling any halon.
The two major fires (and I've been in a few more 'minor' ones as well) in my life were not extinguished by halon (1 house, 1 hotel) but I have extinguishers - water, foam, and CO2 around the house and those plus halon in the garage. It was brought home at our previous house when the next door neighbour started his BMW tourer motorcycle and left it idling under the alcove in front of his house while he had breakfast. It was a major rebuild to the front of the house and the bike was history but the only thing he could muster was bowls of water
from the kitchen sink. He then got access to my garage (I was away on a trip) and used up every extinguisher I owned. [and then argued about the replacement prices]. But in essence, what I am trying to say and put across is that hand held and car extinguishers are just for first aid while you and others involved get out and get well away.
[I'd have let his house burn with him in it].
 
Sandy,

Put a motorized / cable actuated shut off valve at the outlet of both tanks. These could be wired to atomatically close upon actuation of the fire suppressant agent.

Maybe some type of quick release door hinges so the doors will be able to be "ejected" upon an emergency situation.

Wear nomex.

Your car looks great.

Best,
S
 

BruceB

GT40s Supporter
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I agree with Malcolm, AFFF is only for pose value as it is useless for anything else.
Halon was banned for use in most if not all forms of motorsport in Ireland and the UK and replaced with AFFF, every weekend there seems to be a report of a car getting burnt to a crisp from some event.
Which causes more pollution I wonder?
In Ireland you can still carry a Halon ext in a competing car (they turn a blind eye most of the time) but you must have the AFFF and alot of people do, I don't know about the UK.
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Good comments. I might 'rig' something up to the master relay which cuts power to everything except the main starter feed. Would not be too hard to do if the leaver is pulled. Surprised that I have not seen any systems that provide a switched circuit (well except maybe some of the electric actuated).

Interesting about AFFF, let's just hope that no one has to pop the pin on any of these systems as Mr. Morton mentioned it is just to get your a$$ out of the car...Quickly.

To me the scary part is the fuel pump(s), most can empty a swimming pool in a few minutes and that has always been a concern if a hose or something ruptures in a wreck.

And definitely spend some extra money on a nice suit, likely the best $$$ value for safety sake.

Scott, one thing that I wonder is how hard it is to knock out the plexiglass and crawl out the window... dosen't look to easy and I doubt you could kick it :)


Good stuff, I'll post some pics of the Safecraft stuff as it arrives.

Sandy
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Scott,
How about MDC in the side windows or explosive bolts on the door hinges and catch all wired to a hot battery bus, inertia operated firewall cut-offs for the tanks, and a dual /second shot halon system. I can almost hear Michael Cane - "You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off" (from the movie 'The Italian Job'). :grinf:
Back on track - if you've got all the right gismos you'll probably never need them. But if you haven't .............:dead:
Interesting thread Sandy. I look forward to your pictures.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
You cannot put a system into a GT40 that will put out a 20 Gal gas fire in and around a car. You can however put a system that will put out a carb fire or a minor leak fire in the engine room (a couple of onces). You can also save your life from a track crash and fire IF you have on a multi layer driving suit, helmet, gloves and a onboard system that will give you 10-15 secs to get the hell out of there.

Here's where it gets really important to think about what the car is going to be used for. If you intend to run the car a lot on track then leave the side windows off for gods sake! Have a good look at most race classes with closesd cars. Window nets not windows! There's a reason for this and its all about fire safety and driver rescue.

SO.....

1. fuel cell
2. leave off side windows
3. 5lb halon system, one onto the driver and one in the engine room
4. spend some money on a driver suit. Go for 3 layer, if you need it then you will REALLY need it.
5. shock triggered fuel pump shutoff system.

All together I am guessing but I bet the above list would come in at less than the cost of a second set of wheels and tires.
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Howard -

You are right on, and I totally forgot about the inertia switch. I think a while back we had a thread on it. I have one going in, and it totally slipped my mind as something that should be part of the simple to do safety gear.

Sandy
 
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