First start attempt

[A.J. Schreder]

I tried to turn over the motor for the first time tonight. I pressed the start button, the Infinity Box showed power to the Megasquirt 3 Pro, the injectors, and the starter. The starter gave a loud CLICK but the engine didn't turn over. I have a Lexus 1UZ engine. It's acting as if it's siezed up, but I've rotated the engine mechanically several times in the past. Is possible the starter isn't engaging the flywheel properly (Graziano trans)? I ran out of time tonight, but I figure the next thing I'll try is remove the starter and make sure it isn't in a bind. Is there something else I'm missing? I had the key fob with me. I did activate the panic alarm and couldn't get it to shut off, so I killed the master power and reset it. But I don't think this is a security problem.

Thanks in advance for your help

A.J.

 

[Larry L.]

This is going to sound a bit dumb...especially if I'm wrong...but, is the battery okay?

'Guy who came over to our place to lube our grandfather clock finished up and tried to start his crossover to head home...'got a loud "click". That was it. I cleaned the battery terminals...STILL got a loud "click".

Jump started the puppy and - wah lah! It started. 'Told him to head for the battery shop w/o shutting the thing off ('figured the battery had a dead cell or two). 'Found out later he hadn't. He wished he had though.

Another possibility is the solenoid (?).

 

[Russell]

AJ, or it could be like my first start on my 1UZ. Earth wires for all and sundry but no major earth strap so not enough juice. Bolted on main earth strap that was already and waiting.....walah action.

 

[A.J. Schreder]

I don't have any ground straps, but the motor and trans are rigidly mounted. Would a strap still be needed?

The battery has been on a trickle charger for the whole project (I hate to think how long that has been....). The headlights are bright when they come on.

As I think this through, I realized the battery terminal is not tightened. I hope that's all this is!

A.J.

 

[Larry L.]

I don't have any ground straps, but the motor and trans are rigidly mounted. Would a strap still be needed?

Probably. 'Couldn't hurt. (2005/2006 Fort GTs have a DEUCE of a time with theirs. 'Slightest bit of corrosion or what-have-you on its battery-cable-to-frame ground connection and many things don't work!)

The battery has been on a trickle charger for the whole project (I hate to think how long that has been....). The headlights are bright when they come on.

The clock guy's lights also came on.

As I think this through, I realized the battery terminal is not tightened. I hope that's all this is!

That could do it...

 

[A.J. Schreder]

Update:
The battery terminal not tightened was definitely the problem, but not the only problem.

After tightening the positive battery terminal, I hit the start button and the motor turned over, slowly. Once. Then everything went blank.

The other problem was I had the starter wired through the 60A mega fuse. And the cable to the starter was 8 gauge. 2 mega fuses blew, killing the power to the Mastercell and front Powercell. After a long conversation with Jay Harris at Infinity Box, I decided to run 0 gauge wire to the starter, unfused. Jay is great, and unfortunately he knows me by name (because of all our communication). He took pity and is sending me some replacement mega fuses. Although after getting off the phone I realized they aren't that expensive.

By the time I receive the mega fuses, I should be ready for the first start!

A.J.

 

[Howard Jones]

I had a master switch go bad once on my GT40. The problem was it was a cheap one I took it apart and found contacts that were very small and loose. Even a simple thing like a master switch can have a bad connection. Connections (lug and bolt) , contacts, multi pin connectors, and even crimped lugs can have resistance through what is designed to be a zero ohm tie point. Then they all add up and before you know it you have dropped a significant amount of voltage across the bad connections. It's pretty easy to loose 2-3 volts and then you are trying to crank your engine with 9 volts.

Try this, put a volt meter on the starter motor main power stud and see what your have when you are cranking the engine over. The idea is to have full battery voltage (12vdc) at this point when the circuit is at highest load (when motor is cranked over). If the voltage at the starter stud is being pulled down to 9 volts or less then your has a high resistance somewhere. I think the change to a bigger main power cable will help a lot. I use 2/0 welding cable. It's not cheap but it has very little resistance over a given length. That's what you want. 8 awg won't cut it.

Hers's some information on wire size as it relates to current load.

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-...ges/selecting-proper-size-welding-cables.aspx

 

[Bill Kearley]

1. a battery at full charge should read 2.2 volts per cell = 13.2 vol
2. a new battery does not mean it's good
3. a load test on a any battery is conducted at 3 times the rated amp, 80 amps x 3 =240 amp for 15 seconds and volts should not drop bellow 9.6 volt.
4. min. 02 cable is recommended.
5. no fuse is used in this line, cranking loads can exceed 300 amp
6. a ground strap engine to frame a must
7. a ground strap from bat neg to frame a must
8. starter current draw will vary with condition of starter, comp ratio, type of oil used and quality of all wire connections.
9. if you use a remote relay, check it's connections, if good, see if it gets hot while cranking. resistance to high= heat
10. if the relay is part of the starter some of them can be rebuilt, but not worth the trouble
11. all connections must be clean

With all these requirements met your motor will spin over as one would expect

 

[Howard Jones]

Ya Bill is correct. The unregulated battery voltage 13.2 VDC should be present at the starter relay (solenoid) input post with key on and before you turn the key to crank (start) then you can see how much the starter current load pulls the entire circuit down by checking available voltage at starter post when you do turn the key to start. This should be right at 12-13vdc but can vary due to voltage drops across the rest of the circuit (cables, lugs, starter solenoid contacts, and all other attachment points in the circuit including all points in the ground side of the circuit from case of starter, through its mechanical attachment to the engine block, and back to the ground side of the battery via cables ground strap etc.


Every one of these points can drop voltage due to resistance that is more than 0 ohms. They add up and if the resulting losses amount to much more than 1 or 2 volts then you are below 12vdc and its starts to have a real effect of starter motor efficiency. My battery neg. post ground cable is bolted to one of the starter case bolts, via a short 2/0 cable, that attach it to the engine block, then the engine block is grounded by the mechanical solid mounts to the chassis. I also run a large ground cable (2awg) from the battery ground post to the main common ground point behind my instrument panel. All other circuits ground there. As you can see the chassis is not used for a ground tie point but it is held at ground potential because it is attached to the engine block and thus the battery ground wire attached to the starter case.

Everything is grounded back to the battery neg post directly.


In a perfect world the starter motor would see the entire battery voltage dropped across it in the starter circuit when it is turned to start the motor. It's really hard to say how much current it takes to crank over a given engine but a 350 V8 @ 10-11 to 1 CR and stiff valve springs can easily require 3-5 hp to crank it at starting speed. That would be in the neighborhood of 250-450 amps with a 80% efficient starter motor. So if you refer back to the cable charts above you are right at a 2/0 cable.

There that's better...………..thanks Bill.

 

[A.J. Schreder]

Thanks for the info, guys!

Once I got the new mega fuses and rewired everything, it worked!

I haven't been getting any fuel, and realized the fuel pump isn't even coming on. I had some confusion in my wire labeling but it turns out there wasn't a fuse in the powercell for the fuel pump output. I put the fuse in, but still no fuel. Then I realized the Infinity Box was never set up to activate that output. So I need to send it in to them to have that programmed. That's massively frustrating since I just mailed it to them a few months ago for updates. It's not so bad though, since I realized more items I forgot to have them program. Like a way to unlock the doors using the FOB. My door locks work, but they only work from the switch that I wired from my secondary fuse box.

In the meantime I'm going to run a temporary wire to the fuel pump relay and see what the next obstacle will be!

 

[Dan Carter]

AJ. My memory may be off here, but I thought the fuel pump was run by the ECU and not the Infinity system.....that’s with the GM unit. Is it different for your setup?

 

[Bill Kearley]

ECU powers the relay in a lot of applications. The ECU will recognise an accident and shot down the fuel pump.

 

[A.J. Schreder]

I wired mine so the ecu (megasquirt 3 pro) triggers the relay. But the relay is supplied power from the rear powercell, which is an output that is not currently active.

I ran that temporary wire to the relay last night to force the pumps on, but still no fuel. I made the mistake of burying the fuel system next to the fuel tank, and I can't access a thing. It seemed like a good idea at the time since I didn't have the engine yet and I had no idea where to put anything. I mounted the filters on the inside of the back panel with enough slack in the lines so I could pull the panel with the filters to make it easy to change the filters. That was such a bad idea....with the coolant lines and turbo in the way, I can't get to anything. So I'm going to relocate/replumb the whole thing and make it easily accessible.

Either the lift pump or my Radium swirl tank isn't working. After I relocate everything, I'll have an easier time diagnosing the problem.

 

[Steven Lobel]

I wired mine so the ecu (megasquirt 3 pro) triggers the relay. But the relay is supplied power from the rear powercell, which is an output that is not currently active.

I ran that temporary wire to the relay last night to force the pumps on, but still no fuel. I made the mistake of burying the fuel system next to the fuel tank, and I can't access a thing. It seemed like a good idea at the time since I didn't have the engine yet and I had no idea where to put anything. I mounted the filters on the inside of the back panel with enough slack in the lines so I could pull the panel with the filters to make it easy to change the filters. That was such a bad idea....with the coolant lines and turbo in the way, I can't get to anything. So I'm going to relocate/replumb the whole thing and make it easily accessible.

Either the lift pump or my Radium swirl tank isn't working. After I relocate everything, I'll have an easier time diagnosing the problem.

Is your garage also a basketball court?

 

[A.J. Schreder]

No, it's cheap repurposed pergo. I ripped it out of the house and taped it to the floor in the barn. I wasn't sure how it would work, but it's awesome. It's not nearly as cold as concrete, I can slide under the car in a breeze, and it has held up to brake fluid, oil and gas!

 

[Cam]

Damn, that’s a major bummer. Sorry to hear you’ll be replumbing everything. At least all the “hard” things like engine and ancillaries are locked in now. I had to make some last minute changes on mine and it turned out (visually) uglier than I would have wanted. I got to the F-it stage and moved on. Project for another day, year, never ... =p

 

[A.J. Schreder]

I saw some pinched hoses in there, I'm hoping that's the problem! Rerouting and remount in everything really wasn't as bad as I feared, and I didn't even have to move the tub! I was afraid I was going to have to chop it to pieces. There are still some components to put back in place, but I liked how the filters and pumps worked out. And tomorrow evening I get another legitimate shot at starting it!