Police brutality and murders.

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Well, police have now murdered two more black men in the last two days...fully videoed with cell phones.

I have expressed concern for a long time that our police departments are performing more and more in a military manner, and that includes a belief that they need to shoot to kill.

I understand they have dangerous jobs (by choice, I might add), but with all the recent fatal police shootings one has to wonder who appointed them judge, jury and executioner. What ever happened to " shoot to injure" so that the "suspect" could be tried in a court of law, where the legal system can meet the responsibility of making those innocence/guilt/punishment determinations?

Look, folks, i'm not trying to piss off anyone who was/is a police officer, has a friend who is a police officer or a family member who is a police officer...we're all there. I know they are highly trained...so my hope is really to hold a calm discussion about this increase in fatal encounters and why that is occuring.

I belive the onus for stopping the slaughter falls clearly on the highest levels of authority within our police departments...Chiefs of Police should inform all of their armed officers that this trend will not be tolerated and then any police officer who kills a "civilian" will have to face a vigorous investigation by an independent court. Asking the police to "police" themselves is like asking the fox to watch the hen house.

"Suicide by cop" is a splendid example...recently people have been killed as they approached officers with a weapon...one even reportedly told the officer "You're going to have to shoot, officer". My question, again, is why did the officer shoot to kill instead of injure?

What say you all?

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
LEOs who "shoot to injure" an armed perp may find the perp shooting back at them or other innocents. They're also not following long-standing, proper targeting techniques as taught in the academy:

“Center mass. It’s ‘operations central’ for your body, houses your heart, a most important muscle that sends blood to all parts of your frame. Your lungs are also here and they are necessary for the balanced exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. You got nerves, lots of nerves that pass through center mass. The vagus nerve for instance represents the golden highway of neurological life sustaining information between your brain and vital organs. This nerve is the master switch for heart rate and blood pressure. Turn off that switch, empty the pump of blood or puncture a lung and a person is likely to die—quickly. This folks is where we are going to put our bullets.”

Two shots to the body, center mass...follow it with one to the head. The use of a firearm is deadly force, folks and your shots need to stop the threat. Remember, the ultimate responsibility for taking another human life is yours. No one else can make that decision for you. You have to be prepared both physically and mentally. To stop a deadly threat you have to know when and where to shoot. I want to see good target placement and a tight group on your chest shots. Are there any questions? OK... Is the line ready? The line is ready... on the command... draw and fire!”

"People, I want you to remember - we don't shoot to kill...we shoot to stop!”

https://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/3468112-Shooting-center-mass-Shooting-to-kill-or-to-stop/


So, basically, "real world" law enforcement weapons tactics, of necessity, are/have to be faaaaaar different than the tactics espoused by those who reside in an alternative world wherein touchy-feely, theoretical, hypothetical, and, if I may say so, delusional tactics are the only ones acceptable. (IOW: "Shoot to injure" as an effective tactic can only be counted on when employed by the likes of Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger or their ilk.)

'Sad but true. :undecided:

('No sarcasm intended anywhere above.)

G'night, All.
 
This is very close to home to me. ---- edited by moderator ---- Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of those killed and to the entire law enforcement community. I fear that the divisions in our country are increasing and these kinds of events will only make it worse.
 
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Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks, Larry,,,your post demonstrates exactly the militaristic attitude I referenced in my original post.

Yes, I watched the horror as Dallas became a war zone last night...keep in mind, though, that the very violence we find so horrible was a calculated response to the very topic I raised...deadly police shootings of UNARMED citizens.

Sure, I agree wholeheartedly that such an attack as the incident in Dallas necessitates deadly force as a response, but that was not the situation about which this thread was originated...it was originated about deadly police force being used against UNARMED citizens, or circumstances in which less than deadly force could and SHOULD have been used.

I have long predicted the terrible situation we saw last night...brought about by frustration about the use of UNNECESSARY deadly force against the very citizens the police are suppose to "...protect and serve".

So, folks, I share the angst over what we all witnessed last night...but that is outside the scope of my intent when I originated this thread, so could we please watch the thread drift? Perhaps you, Larry, could start a different thread about the situation in Dallas last night so we can keep this discussion focesed on the issue at hand here.

Thanks.

Doug
 
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Mike

Lifetime Supporter
It's unfortunate on a site called gt40s that a single forum section devoted to arguing and divisive political debate, has more activity than all sections under gt40 technical discussions combined.
 
Well, police have now murdered two more black men in the last two days...fully videoed with cell phones.

Doug - that's just jacked up.

There are not "fully videoed" incidents, and to state "murdered two..black men" and not include in your commentary the murder of five policemen is exactly why we have situations like this.

You, me, the rest of us have no idea what exactly went on in any of those situations, but many of us are quick to decide and place blame.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Well, police have now murdered two more black men in the last two days...fully videoed with cell phones.
'Intended to post what follows before I hit the 'send button' on my original post last night, but, forgot to do so:

There's a vid on the 'net somewhere ('tried to find it again but couldn't) wherein it appears one of two LEOs confronting an armed perp unjustifiably shot the perp in the back as the perp was putting his gun down on the sidewalk...but, when seen from behind the perp, it's very clear he was drawing a second gun from the rear of his waste band as he was putting his first gun down...and it was the second LEO who was standing behind the perp who saw what the perp was doing and fired.

My point is one, or even two or three videos taken from this-or-that angle/vantage point don't always tell the whole story.

None of us were present when/where the incidents to which you referred went down, so, neither you nor any of the rest of us knows the whole story. 'Remember, 'jumping to conclusions' in the infamous Michael Brown case brought us the "Hands up - Don't shoot" lie the country has been dealing with ever since.

There's much we cannot see in the vids that have been released so far (at least the ones I've seen). The vid of the incident wherein the guy was shot in his car was taken after-the-fact by his girlfriend...both vids of the guy shot on the ground were taken from angles that don't reveal the suspect's right arm/hand...or much of anything else that's helpful.

In short - forensics should tell the tale far more accurately than the vids we currently know about...so, it'd be wise to wait and see what's-what there.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Wow, Larry...something we can agree about :pepper:

Bottom line for me, though, is that even if you are right about all you just posted, the LEOs had a responsibility to exercise professional restraint and shoot to injure. They did not.

Lethal force should be used only as a response to having been targeted...such as the incidents in Dallas last night. Neither of the incidents to which you alluded, the ones we see on TV or on the internet, appeared to show any reason the LEO should have been "...in fear for his life", as they have been trained to say.

Doug
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
I fear police...and what I do if stopped by an LEO has gotten me out of a ticket (or worse) more than once.

I keep both hands in clear view, one on the steering wheel and the other on the mirror on the outside of the drivers' door. I answer all questions using the word "sir". If the officer asks for ID or insurance/registration information I tell him in a respectful tone, all the while keeping my hands on the mirror and steering wheel, where in my car the documents are located. I then tell the officer that I am going to use my right hand to get the items he requested and ask him if that is alright. I then move very slowly to get the requested information.

Once a DPS officer, after having witnessed the actions I just described, ordered me to get into his car on the passenger's side...I figured I was about to get arrested, or worse, beaten. He just told me that I did not have to tell him every move I was going to make, and I explained that I never want any LEO to view me as any form of threat to their safety.

He thanked me and released me without as much as a warning ticket.

That is a practice I adopted after I was stopped one night about 2AM without explanation, handcuffed and searched, brutalized when I respectfully asked why I was stopped, and then released. I guess some new cop just needed to feel like a big shot, maybe new to the job or just a cop exercising his self-granted authority to be a bully.

So, yeah, I've been on both sides of this equation and know how a rogue cop can turn a law abiding citizen into someone who fears law enforcement and their brutal tactics.

If law enforcement does not abandon their brutal (and even murderous) tactics, we are going to see more and more incidents like occurred in Dallas last night. People will only stand for so much abuse before they start fighting back...with tragic results like occurred last night.

Doug
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Right, Bob...thanks for pointing that out.

Doesn't the board header also say something about "...enter at your own risk"?

Here's my attitude, it's what I tell people all the time: "I don't have to participate in every argument to which I am invited."

That also describes the attitude I assume here on this part of the forum.

Cheers!!!

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
...the LEOs had a responsibility to exercise professional restraint and shoot to injure.

LEOs who "shoot to injure" an armed perp may find the perp shooting back at them or other innocents. They're also not following long-standing, proper targeting techniques as taught in the academy...

'Theoretical tactics' are what they are. 'Actual tactics' are those that have evolved/morphed out of the failures/casualties encountered when 'theoretical tactics' were employed and failed. ;)

:chug:
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Doug, quick comment. Probably the worst thread title ever.

"Dallas" would have sufficed....
Actually, Keith, the thread was originated much earlier yesterday (I just checked...my first post is dated 10:11 PM, but I had been busy and if the Dallas incident started earlier I was unaware of it), before the incident in Dallas unfolded.

As a Moderator, perhaps you have some authority to check the timing...if so I think your research will verify that. I would certainly have, and later did, express the opinion that the use of deadly force against the Dallas perp was justified, had it been originated in response to the incident in Dallas. My concerns were related to two incidents, one in Lousiana and the other in Minnesota (I think...will verify that and edit this post if it occured in a different location) within the previous couple of days.

Cheers!!

Doug
 
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Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
'Theoretical tactics' are what they are. 'Actual tactics' are those that have evolved/morphed out of the failures/casualties encountered when 'theoretical tactics' were employed and failed. ;)

:chug:
Larry, one of the murdered victims was unarmed; the other murdered individual was licensed for concealed carry and informed the officer that he was armed (as I would have, believing that the officer would be entitled to know), but was responding to the officer's demand that he produce identification, not reaching for his weapon.

We're headed for more armed insurrection directed at our Law Enforcement Community if they do not temper their actions...our constitution guarantees us all the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...not just LEOs. We have a legal system that is authorized to deprive criminals of their liberty and, if their crime is heinous enough, their life, should a JURY determine those actions are justified...not a police officer who is pissed off that someone is not compliant, attempts to flee, or is combative when captured, yet the police carnage just continues and is getting worse by the day.

Believe it or not, as you choose, but I am hard-lined when it comes to criminals. I was a specialist with the administration department for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for 18 months, so I saw criminal activity first hand inside the prisons...in fact, there is a department named Office of the Inspector General that is literally the "cops" in the prisons...their job is to investigate and prosecute illegal activities that are committed by the "offenders" (we were prohibited from callng them inmates or criminals). I know criminality and those cops who murdered the two recent victims are criminals. In fact, cops who are convicted of crimes and sentenced to prison are always housed in protective custody while in prison (not a pleasant placement, in a jail cell all by themselves 23 hours a day, no visitors, their only out-of-cell activities are a daily shower and an hour of exercise, all alone in a screened cage...certainly no TV or A/C orother special privileges). The only other "offenders" who are more heavily restricted are sexual abusers who target children. Incarcerated cops are eligible for parole, but ALL offenders found guilty of any sex-related crime serve STRAIGHT TIME...no time off for good behavior, not allowed to "piggyback" multiple sentences...if they are given, say, two 6 year sentences, they serve all 12 years PLUS whatever additional time they are assessed for violating any of the prison rules.

Cops who murder usually die in prison, as well it should be. They were charged with upholding the law and we are encouraged to trust them...yeah, right...

Doug
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Larry, one of the murdered victims was unarmed;
If that's a reference to the guy "selling C.D.s", 'twas reported to 9-1-1 by an anon caller that the deceased had earlier threatened an individual "with a gun"...which is why the LEOs showed up. So, your statement that he was "unarmed" is an allegation and nothing more at this point. (If I remember correctly, 'twas reported that witnesses saw one of the LEOs in fact remove a gun from the decedent's pocket after the incident.)


...the other murdered individual was licensed for concealed carry and informed the officer that he was armed (as I would have, believing that the officer would be entitled to know), but was responding to the officer's demand that he produce identification, not reaching for his weapon.
Again, all of that is "alleged" at this point...based mostly on the decedent's girlfriend's 'AFTER-THE-FACT' video & 'voice over' as far as I know. I haven't seen any reports that have dealt with the 'LEO's side' of things as yet.

Bottom line: None of us K-N-O-W diddley-squat at this point...
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Preponderance of evidenve, Larry...preponderance of evidence!

...about that gun...most cops carry a "throw-down gun" for exactly that reason. Sure, their fingerprints will be on it...of course, they picked it up at the scene of the crime...but it also has the dead person's fingerprints, they make sure of that!

Most cops will not admit that to anyone except for other individuals who are in the field of criminal justice (how do you think I found out about it???).

Cops are masters at crime scene arrangement, particularly if they committed the crime!!!

Doug
 
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