Webber Vs. Holly

Hi all
I supose this is a tough one and will cause a bit of a debate that might have already been settled,

I have a Ford 302 with a Holly carb, I am thinking of putting 44IDF kit on the beast, some issues I might think are there! Guy's with these on already might be able to answer.

1. If the engine desides to spit back how bad is the fire situation in the engine comp.

2. as there is no choke, how do you get on with a cold start

3. Reliability in all, am I better sticking with the holly for comfort and less hassel. I dont mind the fifing and faffing setting the webbers up but once set how reliable are they.

4. if i do go to the webbers HAS ANYONE GOT A SET FOR SALE With the manifold for my 302.

Thank You


Alex
:stunned:

 
Alex, I have 44IDF's on my 347motor. I hope this helps.

1) I've had no issues with FIRE or anything coming close to one. (If you could see me right now I'm banging on wood!) Warm starts (eg. after refueling) are a bit of a problem as the carbs load up with fuel but I've got a new technique someone told me about so I'll be trying that when the time comes. I've noted the carbs can spit/burp fuel through the trumpets during a warm start too (I run mine with tea strainer filters) and if your exhaust pipes are warm enough I guess you could have a problem but I've not. I do note fuel residue stains on the "shelf" that surrounds the carbs too so it can be an issue.

2) I live in Florida so we really don't get a lot of bitterly cold days but when we do I usually don't have a major issue with getting the car started. A couple of pumps of the "fun" pedal and after a couple of tries she fires right up. (Maybe fire is a bad choice of words!) Not really a problem as far as I recall.

3) I've been told that a Holley is far less trouble then the Webers. So, yes your car will be more "streetable" and easier to live with using a Holley and I doubt you'll have to be too overly concerned with flames etc. But before you discount the Webers I must say I love mine. They look great, they sound fantastic, they are correct on Mk 1's and IMHO they are the dogs bollocks. I've had mine "set up" once by a guy I thought knew his stuff but didn't and so I had another guy fiddle with them but he too might have given more sales pitch then knowledge so I feel sure if I found that guy who really knew his Webers mine would be even better then they are now. I think mine are about 95% but that last 5% would make things even better.

4) sorry I do not have a set for sale...but if you look in the parts for sale thread I thought I saw someone with a set for sale.

Good luck and post pics of the "beast."
 

Michael Holmes

Lifetime Supporter
I opted for a Holley Le Mans bowl 715 in a turkey pan on a COBRA intake manifold on my SBF. It came down to what was available first and which was affordable. Normally that combination was used on the MKll but was also found on the MKlll.
 

Keith

Moderator
I'll stick my oar in here and say that it's a matter of form over function really. For all street and occasional trackday purposes and bog standard Vac Sec Holley wil perform out of the box. Up from there, a bog standard DP Holley will work out of the box and give slightly better performance with worse economy. Up from that, a reworked after market Holley like Demon will give oodles more useable power and probably return better economy but at a price.

To be fair, a Holley is pure genius for it's simplicity and reliability, and if you need to change exhausts for trackdays, re-jetting is a breeze. Also remember that it was designed exactly for this type of engine with either single or dual plane, high or low rise manifold. I used Holleys for years in the UK and never had a seconds issue with them, road or track.

Webers. Well, I may get shot down here but it was a European mindset that mated them to the Ford V8 in the '60's to start with. If the car had been born in the USA, it would have had a 4 barrel. Webers would probably never been considered. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an individual runner set up but if you multiply that by the number chokes tubes and jets to fiddle with and then you consider that there's no real performance advantage to be gained and a lot of sweat and repeatability (important) to be lost by their use, then why would you bother?

There's nothing beats the look or the induction roar of Webers. It's purist and original (for racing) and they will provide hours of fun setting up for every occasion (humidity, temperature, altitude etc) and when you get proficient, you can charge £100 an hour to all your mates to fix theirs for them :)

If you're a hobbyist, like to tweak and want looks, sound and originality - go for Webers. If you want reliablly good repeatable performance with minimal fiddling and don't care too much about the look, Holley must be your choice.

If it were me? I'd go for a Weber 'look' AND reliability with great performance and go for TB's.. :)

Hope this helps. I've not personally used Webers but I've been around Webers and have used Holleys and TB's for years, both mechanical and electronic.

Of course if budget is a concern, then the Holley wins again..
 

Keith

Moderator
Mike, that set up that looks the bee's testicles and Alex, that would be what I would want. Probably no difference in price over an (Italian) Weber/manifold set up anyway.

You CAN have your cake and eat it.. :laugh:
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Nice....sad to see that they ignored my favorite Ford engine, the 351 Cleveland (not to mention the ever-increasingly popular Clevor combination).

Cheers from Doug!
 
Well we seem to be getting a good thread together here. but it is amaizing that there is no deffinate answer to this question. I supose it is down to budget at the end of the day.

One thing that we can all agree on is the webbers will sound and look great.

Looking at importing the kit from the U.S. but could end up costin £2K.

I supose to the gt40 purist would this be the deciding factor weather the GT is a good ojne or not walking round the back to see the webbers/Holly

I supose as a reliability factor the question worth asking is I'm in North Wales Uk, and do you think I could drive to Stoneleigh and back without having to adjust the webbers ( Iwould like to see the look on the AA mans face when he arives and I say I think its a problem with these webbers.....):laugh:


Alex
:blank:
 
The day someone with a weber equipped car of similar weight, size, etc & with a driver of equal capability pulls out & pass's my Holley equipped car I will jump the fence & look hard at the webers, has not happened yet & my fence jumping days are more or less over [ tend to sort of climb them these days:)]. Fortunately the laws of physics are on my side on this one...
 
I'm with Jac Mac. I have done a true back to back comparo on a 383SBC with no other changes - this was a mild 400-ish hp street engine with 170cc intake runner and edelbrock heads, hyd roller cam, 9.5 c.r.

Proform (Holley HP clone) 750DP carb on edlelbrock performer intake vs quad 47mm OER (Webber DCOE clone) on a moon cross-ram. Both set-ups were tuned properly using wideband o2 gear.

The 750DP was ultra-crisp from off-idle and ran strong to about 5600. IR set-up sounded awesome, had slightly more midrange torque at around 3k to 3.5k rpm, and was dead by 5 grand. The 750DP set-up was far more economical and materially quicker. No contest.

Cheers, Andrew Robertson, New Zealand
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Really makes one wonder why the webers were used, then....IIRC, Holley's were available at the time (although, perhaps not in as refined a form as they are now).

Cheers from Doug!
 

Keith

Moderator
It's what the European racers (the original race teams) at the time considered the pinnacle of carburation. I'm fairly sure they didn't know very much about Holley style carbs then and remember, Shelby himself must have used them in the Cobra program a couple of years earlier. Some of the people involved with the original concept would have been very familiar with Webers, which were certainly superior to any other racing style carbs at the time, although Telcamit and Lucas mechanical fuel injection was also very prevalent at the top end of motor racing in the '60's. It was only later that it became fairly obvious that the humble Holley was pretty much unbeatable for simplicity, reliability and performance and it was probably drag racing that made that breakthrough in the USA.

I also believe that the 4 inline carbs developed by Autolite/ Ford had the potential to beat the Weber and single plane manifold hi/lo rise development made all the difference too.

To be honest I don't think they had much of a choice then as a Weber set up was pretty high end stuff and certainly not as complex and prone to failure as mech injection.

But, we're a lot cleverer now!

PS GW heads were developed for Webers and if it were me and I wanted a Weber set up, that is what I would use, not Webers on trad style Ford heads.
 

Michael Holmes

Lifetime Supporter
I opted for a Holley Le Mans bowl 715 in a turkey pan on a COBRA intake manifold on my SBF. It came down to what was available first and which was affordable. Normally that combination was used on the MKll but was also found on the MKlll.

I agree the Webers are the obvious choice. My comment about what was available first I should have said what was available to me first. As in I am changing out the Edelbrock carb and intake. And was going for Weber or Holley 715. The Holley carb and intake came up for sale before the weber did.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I'm fairly sure they didn't know very much about Holley style carbs then

And most people maybe not so much now, that is knowing about them. The prices for US equipment in the UK is akin to robbery and not many people grew up with 4bbls. I sort of missed it a bit in the US due to my age, but can tune one a little bit. Any US gear head who is five years older than me, or roundy round races in the US, can tune one (and maybe make it sing like Stan and others here) pretty decently.

4bbls are amazingly effective (not so simple when you really get into them) and economical. There isn't any way I'd choose a Weber setup over a 4bbl for any sort of track work. For a show car, Sunday car, or waxer, maybe, but that is probably about it.
 
Alex,
I have a little 289 Ford with a 600vac sec Holley and 4 speed in a very early Ford falcon and would never change the carb.They are fantastic in that application.Originally designed by Smokey Yunick but thats another story.I also have a 347 Weber equipped GT40 RF.Carbs are early Italian 48IDA and after initial issues being sorted (2nd hand when purchased) I do not experience the problems some others on this forum do with Webers.I have nothing but praise for them and when understood are simple.Most issues are in the linkages and not emulsions/idles/airs etc.Starts every time whether hot/cold/warm/stalled.
There is nothing like seeing those carbs through the rear window of a GT40.It is what most enthusiasts expect and like to see.Just beats that round air cleaner every time.
Holleys are definately cheaper and in some cases produce more top end HP (NASCAR run Holleys or similar) but never the nostalga of seeing Webers.If you have the money do it.Great sound.Great experience.Horsepower care factor Holley over Weber "0".Cheers.
 
Well said Chris

I am realy glad I started this thread now it has got us all chatting and debating about this predicament.

I like the comment webber vs. vettel as well :thumbsup:

I have a holly on at the moment and am going for the looks and sound more than the HP so it is still a tough decision.

Quote:
"Good luck and post pics of the "beast.""

159_5987 psweb.jpg

Cheers Guys and Keep up the Chat :)

Alex
 
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