Wheel Camber Settings

I apologize if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it:

I was double checking on a flat surface today my wheel camber. I used a digital level and came up with the following readings in degrees:


left front: –1 degree ////// right front: –1.4 degree
left rear: –1.2 degree ///// right rear: –1.3 degree


1) The manual gives specs in MM’s & I’m not sure how to convert MM to degrees.
2) Does anybody have the specs in degrees.
3) And, has anybody noted the amount of degree change if I rotate the upper control outer ball joint (see pic) one turn.


Or am I close enough for government work.
 

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Howard Jones

Supporter
My comments below are for street tires....... slicks will need much more camber and a tire temp gauge to do correctly. Ask Hoosier or others who run them for their setup data.

I think -1 and -1.5 is a lot for street tires on a street car. I run my GT40 at -0.5 all the way around. I played with more for track use but it wasn't worth the effort for a non RACE event.

I went to as far as -1.25 on street summer only Z rated street tires. Lap times improved a bit but since open track day laps are seldom run at 100% it didn't really make much of a difference in the "fun factor". Then if you leave it that way on the street it will really impact tire life.

-.05 on all four corners would be a good place to begin. 4-5 degrees of caster will be in the center of the sweet spot and about 1/8 inch of toe total at the front and 3/32s total at the rear will be good to start with.

Tell the guy at the alignment shop, if you don't do it yourself, to set it to Ford GT settings if he needs a input for his computer.

Also make sure you have NO MORE than 40% of those rod end threads exposed. Use the inboard two at the top and bottom to change camber a bit more if necessary.
 
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I apologize if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it:

I was double checking on a flat surface today my wheel camber. I used a digital level and came up with the following readings in degrees:


left front: –1 degree ////// right front: –1.4 degree
left rear: –1.2 degree ///// right rear: –1.3 degree


1) The manual gives specs in MM’s & I’m not sure how to convert MM to degrees.
2) Does anybody have the specs in degrees.
3) And, has anybody noted the amount of degree change if I rotate the upper control outer ball joint (see pic) one turn.


Or am I close enough for government work.

I'd try to get the settings closer- at least within .2 if possible, side to side.

That much camber is well within the specs for a Z06, and OK for the street, IMO.

For toe, the manual says 3mm or 3/64" toe in. I think that's about right for stability. Go a bit more tow-in for more stability if you want. Note that there is a toe setting for both the front and the rear- be sure the rear is toed correctly, and that the car is square- the alignment shop should understand this, and be able to adjust until the thrust angle is correct.

I would want to reset your alignment if those were my settings, but first I'd get the car on an alignment rack and check them. It's hard to get a flat surface, and every time I setup a car, I used a laser to get all 4 corners flat so that corner balancing was accurate. The alignment shop should validate that their system is flat.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Sorry, I meant -0.5 NOT 0.05 degrees camber. You can run much more but the car won't go any faster on the street and unless you are at 10-10s, lap times will not be quicker. Tires will wear faster with -1.5 camber settings than the modest -.5 with no real improvement in corner speed on the street. But then you are buying tires not me. Unless you are at track speeds on the street..............I can't help you with that. Good luck..........

Will is right, .4 difference side to side is too much. You can get them very close (as close as 1/2 turn of the top rod end) with a little patience and if you are paying someone insist on a .1 or better if possible. Those guys are using super-duper laser computer thing a ma gigs and it should be able to see a single 1/2 turn on a rod end. That, by the way, is a good thing to know. How much does camber change with a single rotation on the top rod end in relation to camber.

Once you know that you can crank in a degree more at the track and put in right back afterwards.
 
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Alex, Howard & Will -- thank you for the feedback.

I can't trust anybody in town here (for a reasonable amount of money) to set the car up. They always seem to screw something up, maybe not direct damage but I usually find some collateral stuff - pretty sad. I have leveled the garage tire locations with floor tiles and set-up strings in the past - I'll be doing my own alignment. The jack/string setting up will take me about 30 minutes & then adjusting from there. There is a lot of satisfaction in doing it yourself without a $20k machine.

This is a street car for me - I'm going to shoot for -.25 to -.50 degree camber all around. The car seems a little "darty", if that's a word, over 60mph or so - I need to check that toe - front & back. I'll also get out a digital caliper to measure how much one turn of the top rod end comes to and report back - it'll be in MM's though and hopefully I'll remember to note degree changes while working through this - it'll be approximate.

If the weather stays warm I'll tackle this over the weekend - I always look forward to working in the garage.

Thanks again - Shark
 
If the car is darty, it's likely bump steer, or not enough toe-in. Or worse, toe-out in the rear- that would make corner entry very interesting. :)

Have you made bump steer bushings? The SLC can be dialed in to have virtually no bump steer, but you have to measure it on your car to get to the right spacer length (front and rear, please). As a rough start, use enough washers to get the tie rod in front parallel with the lower control arm, then start the checking and refining process from there. Same for the rear.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
When you say "darty" two different things come to mind.

1. When running straight down the road the car wants to change direction a lot. Just a little and its easy to correct but annoying. That's usually too little toe at the front, or one/both sides are toed out.

2.The other is, just as the car is turned in to a corner, the rear goes to overseer as the car loads up. That is usually the rear toeing out and steering the car at the rear.

I like the front with just enough toe to prevent #1 but not anymore than that. Just a bit of toe in will get you nice lively turn in and take out some push. The rear on my GT40 is setup to go just about straight up and down when at full normal compression in a highly loaded corner. This will take a bit of playing with unless you get some setup data from someone. Too much toe in on it made the inherent overseer worse.

By the way I expect that the SLC is a MUCH better design as far as geometry goes and there won't be anything like the compromises and outright design changes that were necessary on my GTD.

Bump steer is one of those things that you will only do once but kind of comes last in the alignment process. Then I would go back and check the rest again. Bump steer that goes to toe out at either end will get you the two symptoms above but as a result of a single compression event "bump" on one corner of the car.

When I worked over my GT40 I took all the springs off, put the shocks back on and set the car up at correct ride height on blocks. Then did just about everything, including checking camber gain in bump. That took ME about a week but it was really interesting. I learned a lot and in the end really improved the balance of the car.
 
buy a fastrax alignment tool w/ the toe adapter- makes it a fairly straight forward and easy process
 
I bought an old Hunter 'D' model alignment machine, think I paid around $600, one of the best tools I ever bought. If you have a lift it makes a nice addition, especially if you have rod ends instead of the softer bushings. I've found tightening the steering arms without allowing for the thread movement can move the toe .010" at each tire. Can easily spend a day or two getting everything dialed in, depending on the previous work performed.
 
Ditto what Howard said, except I found 1 degree negative on the front works well with .5 degree negative on the rear. The rear is more sensitive to camber due to the much wider tire. 4-5 degrees caster is good, with an 1/8th toe at the front. I used no toe at the rear. This set up seemed to produce a very road-friendly car.

Just for a bit of perspective, my CAV arrived to me with almost 3 degrees of negative camber at the front and it was terrible on the street.

Just my experience.
 
The steering rack arms are parallel with the lower arms... the last time I check :annoyed:. I'll be checking everything, ride height, camber, toe frt.-back etc. I have changed the ride height several times so the bump steer is something I'll hone in on. The current dartiness I'm almost certain is related to my toe being off -- Shark
 
buy the fastrax and just do it yourself. Very simple. it'll take several hours (since you'll end up chasing it back and forth to get it where you want), but you'll get there.

As long as you arn't tracking the car you don't need to be perfect with it - I guarantee you my home brew alignment isn't spot on perfect but I've yet to have any issues on the road, it feels planted and like it's on rails.

Don't think a profesional shop will do better - with my OEM cars I've been back to shops that are seen as being excellent with alignments because it sucked. It took one shop 3 times to get my Z06 re-aligned after i lowered it.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
The garden variety alignment/tire sales shop just can't spend the time it takes to really get things REPEATEBLY correct. When you do your own you will find this out and never expect a one time on the rack to do it again.

The car needs to be rolled back and forth at least several feel between setting changes so the whole thing just goes to crap and as Alex says you end up chasing your tail.

The reason my GT40 took so long was when I took it out for a drive and then checked things again a lot of seemingly finished, wasn't. Some things like bump adjustment will hold up if you don't change ride height but others like toe will change when your drive it. I think most of the inconsistency is the tires and springs loading up and masking the change you made. Then when it is freed up they are all different.

You can setup your car yourself but it will take time and be prepared to roll it to and fro often and recheck your setting every time.

In the end you will have a setup that you know what the setting are. One last thing. Keep notes in the form of a stick car seen from above. Every time you make a change add new data. After a couple of hours you can really get confused if you don't.

Here's Alex's tool, looks good, maybe I'll buy one for Francine's birthday (my SLC)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-91000?seid=srese1&gclid=CP3MxYDQtbwCFQxqfgodDjkAUw
 
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As Howard said, don't forget to roll the car back and forth to let the changes settle.

one thing i've never figured out, with professional shops, is i've never seen them roll a car or do anything to try to settle the change. They just crank on the bolts until the machine says good, and that's that.

I would also buy these longacre toe plates. Yes, you can string the car etc.. but it's just so fricken easier to use quality toe plates.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/lng-79500/overview/


And write down your changes, you will go bat shit crazy if you don't because of how one change impacts another. You'll set caster, then camber, then run back to caster because camber will change it, etc....

Bumpsteer is easy - set the angle of the steering arm half-way between the angle of the LCA and UCA.

And remember to just use regular hex nuts while doing the alignment because after you make a change (e.g., tie rods) you want to tighten the nut to prevent slop from playing with your measurement.
 
Here's Alex's tool, looks good, maybe I'll buy one for Francine's birthday (my SLC)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-91000?seid=srese1&gclid=CP3MxYDQtbwCFQxqfgodDjkAUw

Just as a heads up there are two FasTrax units. The following link is for the one that will fit 17 in. to 22 in. wheels.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-91010/overview/

Edit: Well Alex.... you broke me down man - I just ordered the following:

Longacre Racing Products 79500 - Longacre Toe-In Plates

SPC Performance 91010 - SPC Performance FasTrax Adjustable Camber Caster Gauge
 
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Dr. David

Lifetime Supporter
I would highly recommend these:

Tenhulzen Automotive - Products

Highly accurate! He has some new ones available that actually clip on to the wheels between the wheel and tire. Just snap it on and dial in your settings. You can "zero" the gauge according to the surface the car is sitting on. You can change your settings in the pits on track day, and check them whenever you want. Easy to work with and very accurate.
Most importantly, at a very reasonable price.
 
Re: Wheel Camber Settings/Ride Height

Took the nose off and got the car leveled in garage. I have adjusted the ride height to "factory" settings.

Question: When I raise the vehicle off the ground and the front suspension goes to full droop - my left side frt. spring is very loose within the perches. The right side appears loose, but doesn't dangle like the left. The adjuster and perch is getting chewed up when the car is dropped and the spring hasn't centered itself within the adjusters/perch. Has anybody else seen this and if so are spring helpers an option. If I raise the adjuster to place the spring in slight compression when the car is lifted - won't ride height go up in proportion. I guess this may seem like a newbie question to some but am I missing something here. --- Thx, Shark
 
Re: Wheel Camber Settings/Ride Height

Took the nose off and got the car leveled in garage. I have adjusted the ride height to "factory" settings.

Question: When I raise the vehicle off the ground and the front suspension goes to full droop - my left side frt. spring is very loose within the perches. The right side appears loose, but doesn't dangle like the left. The adjuster and perch is getting chewed up when the car is dropped and the spring hasn't centered itself within the adjusters/perch. Has anybody else seen this and if so are spring helpers an option. If I raise the adjuster to place the spring in slight compression when the car is lifted - won't ride height go up in proportion. I guess this may seem like a newbie question to some but am I missing something here. --- Thx, Shark

I have zero-rate helpers on my car now and like them. My experience is that they are a useful thing, especially for cars with the 4" springs and a lift kit. Now, when the car is in full droop, the perches stay aligned.

PM if you need part numbers, etc.
 
Will - PM'd you prior to you post. Yes, part numbers (zero-rate and are spring dividers? needed) would be good. I have the standard shocks/springs though - without the lift kit.
 
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