GT 40 Critics...

Hershal Byrd · 05-01-04, 01:31 PM

I recieved an e mail from a friend and he had a link to another forum where they were discussing the pros and cons of the GT 40. Most of the comments were in regards to the Gulf car at Knotts. Here is the link if you're interested.
http://www.ffcobra.com/ubb/ultimateb...=037930#000002

I found several comments to be a bit harsh but perhaps I'm a bit biased here. One statement was that the getting in and out routine. I would have to say that was probably me that gave the instructions to this critic. My reason for such instructions was to prevent any damage to the new leather seats and to prevent the dash from being scratched by folks who have no expierence getting into the car. I'm sure the new owner of this Gulf car appreciated that. I found it interesting that I get in and out in less than five seconds and I weigh 230lbs.! It's a matter of technique. The Gulf car has a removable steering wheel but it's just not practical to take it off and on everytime somebody wanted to sit in it.
The critic also felt that the visibility factor was terrible. I now have near 20,000 miles on my RFGT40 and I can simply state that I have no such issues as he describes. I have great vision out the windshield and out the side glass as well. Seeing throught the rear view mirror and over the injection is fine. Sure, it's not as good as some but it has plenty there to allow safe movement from lane to lane. I have large 1984 Mazda RX 7 remote mirrors on my GT. These are the best. They give exellent vision to the rear sides and cover most of the blind spot that ALL vehicles have on the right rear quarter.
The other issue is about grabbing the upper windscreen post to get out of the car. Has anyone other than Alian V broke a windscreen doing this?
Lloyd GT40 says you can hang on the ERA windscreen post and not worry about this problem. This is because of the spyder being made of carbon fiber. I have had a few times where a friend has grabbed my windscreen post and pulled themselves out. Luckily there was no damage. So I guess the RF has a strong spyder but I still will maintain my method of exit and entry. There simply is no reason to use the windscreen post to lift one out of this car. That's why the instructions are helpful.
Another thing I would like to mention. I have a friend who owns an Everett Morrison Cobra. He had a habit of pulling himself up out of the seat by grabbing the top of the windscreen. needless to say, it popped. So it ain't just the GT with this problem. I have owned a Midstates Cobra for sixteen years. It too is a car you have to get used to driving. There are visibility issues with it as well but you become aware of this and you do what is neccasary to compinsate. Just as you do when exiting the cobra, you watch out for the hot side pipes so you don't get snake bit.

At least The critic was very impressed with the build of the Gulf car. It's a shame that he has made a decision not to build a GT because of a 2 minute sit inside one. I would luv to give the guy a ride and even allow him to drive my car so he can see first hand what it's like.
Are there any composite structure experts out there that can answer as to how thick the carbon fiber would be to maintain solid rigidity. I do know that carbon fiber is a very strong material for its weight . It's mainly used to reduce weight and maintain strength. Is it possible to make fiberglass strong enough in this area ? Or how about an epoxy layup instead of polyester resin. will that be stronger?

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dan Weilacher · 05-01-04, 07:11 PM

Hersh, i wouldnt let it bother you . Every car has it's give and takes. Some of them are what it makes it part of the experience of owning such a car . If it did all things for all people, at a price everyone could afford , and everone could build one , I wouldnt have it. I want something unique . Regards, Dan Weilacher [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

BenL · 05-01-04, 07:55 PM

Something to remember about, the GT40s were designed for quick entry at the start of LeMans.

Gary Gibbs · 05-01-04, 09:19 PM

With those complaints I assume you recommended a Honda Accord? The V-6 does have 240 HP.

JOSEPH · 05-01-04, 09:44 PM

I suggest that you meet them at a car show, and I don't care what car they bring and put a GT-40 two cars away from them and watch all the on lookers walk right past their cars to see the 40. This happens every weekend that I take my " BLUE BEAUTY " to the shows all around the Atlanta area. Joe [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

DaveWharran · 05-02-04, 01:23 AM

Hey Hirsh,
There are some people that are never satisfied. These cars were designed for a single purpose...to win races in competion. That they can be adapted to the street is phenominal.
The wife and I both were very surprised that the ride is as soft and smooth as it is. It rides better than my VW Beetle.
I am 6 feet 2 and fit in the car with no problems. It is very easy and comfortable for long rides. The interior feels small when you first get in, but quickly, you have no sensation that you are setting as low as you are. Visibility out the front and sides is excellent. Out the back is poor. If one watches the mirrors, blind spots and andof visibility out the back isn't a probelem.

The only time I even tried to grab the A pillar is when I was laying under the dash. Never been a problem although I am concious of pulling too hard. I usually just use the console and door sill to set up onto the rocker panel/fuel area. No problems. I have grabbed for the A pillar, but have avoided putting too much force onit. The roof is a fairly sturdy piece, but.....

My steering wheel is removable via a SWEET quick disconnect.
Removing the wheel helps a lot, and only takes seconds to do.
The guy that whined so much must not like cars too much.
I love my GT. It''s a daily driver.

Rick Chattell · 05-02-04, 10:38 AM

They are missing the point Hersh in the same way a potential client missed it, when he informed me he would not be buying a GT40 because he would find it difficult to get the tickets from Autobahn tollbooths, without opening the door and getting out.

I suppose GT40's aren't for everyone - Thank the Lord!

Rick [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ron Earp · 05-02-04, 11:01 AM

Those folks are just looking for excuses to not buy a 40 so they'll feel better! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Tis natural!

As for the A pillar, well, ERAs break too as one fellow some years ago was writing about on this forum. Lyold GT40 will find that out first hand I suppose, although he doesn't have the car yet. None of the cars will take hanging off the A pillar for very long. Even if the spider was steel I wouldn't do it, doesn't make any sense to me. The right way to get in the car is stand on the seat and slide down, or sit on the sill and swing over. If this causes problems then 40 ownership might not be for you.

Archie · 05-02-04, 11:31 AM

On the isue of breaking a windscreen because of fiberglass flexing, I guess I need to take a better look at how some of these cars are built. On my car I've got The roof & "A" "B" pillars are built like a roll cage. I have steel all the way around the windscreen and passenger compartment. The windscreen is mounted directly into the steel & the fiberglas roof panel is just decorative to cover up all the steel. I remove and install myself via the top of the door opening all the time. If you guys are using steel reinforcement in the roof & windshield area & are still worried about breaking the winshield then maybe I should get out of the habit of using it to get in & out.

Thanks

Archie

Mark Clapp · 05-02-04, 12:03 PM

I thought it was common knowledge among Cobras, GTs and any special that you never grab the windshield. However, I always instruct first-timers to "make like they are on a pommel horse" and support themselves from below. You have to be watching and catch people grabbing above for the screen and door tops (which is a natural reaction) and be quick to stop them or it will be a bummer day for all.

Lynn · 05-02-04, 01:57 PM

Archie has done it right, I think. Short of having a steel roofed monocoque ala the original, this looks to be a good solution. Another approach is to have a round tube roll bar just inside of the A pillar and roof area with hand holds. The safety benefits of this are fairly obvious as well. If anyone has a good solution for a retrofit of something similar, they could probably make big money with it.

I am dealing with this right now with the guys doing the final prep/body work for paint. Without having a windshield at the time my spyder was affixed in the front, it got stretched out ever so slightly towards the front. The result was that the front edge of the roof line/windshield bed is lower than the top edge of the glass by about the thickness of the windscreen. It is going to take a lot of tweeking to get everything to fit right since hanging the roof off of the top of the glass is not a good over all solution: I think it would put to much stress on the glass. The windshield might pop even without someone hanging on it. If there had been a hard mount, like Archie's, there wouldn't have been a problem as the position of roof line to windshield would be well defined.

With my issue, it will take some lowering of the windshield bed (mostly in the corners and down the A pillars), some pre-stressing of the roof line via pulling it up and applying layers of composite on the underside and bit of reliance on the windscreen cement system. My windscreen surround does have carbon fibre in it, but I still don't think it would stand up as grab point. I have been thinking of getting an aircraft "No Grab" plackard to affix to the underside of the roof in front of the passenger door opening :-D.

Regards,
Lynn

Ron Earp · 05-02-04, 02:27 PM

Archie's is the strongest I've ever seen or heard of but it is in a Fiero based look-alike which gives him more leadway with mounting points, chassis, etc. Still wouldn't hang off of it, but if I was going to grab an A pillar it'd be his.

Archie · 05-02-04, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
.....if I was going to grab an A pillar it'd be his.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO...... We don't know each other that well, yet.

Bill Musarra · 05-02-04, 10:33 PM

If you decide to go the cage route then the cage gives you something to grab hold of. This is how mine looks so far. the cage will be painted the same color as the car. I thought of adding a grab bar to the cage, but changed my mind as the cage developed. I don't have the exact shot that shows it, but the cage sits right under the A pillar with about a quarter inch to spare, and sits partially under the glass on the down leg. At the bend that goes across the car, it sticks out enough to grab for assistance on entry or exit, so I left the grab piece out.

Lynn · 05-03-04, 08:35 AM

Bill,

A picture is worth a thousand words! That is exacty what I was trying to describe. Wouldn't it be cool if the roof had steel like this inside the spyder? Many of the original doors had steel imbedded in them for rigidity and to maintain the shape. Is that redundant? To establish and maintain the shape.

To get this thread back to Hersh's original intent. I think many Cobra owners may be intimidated by what they see in the GT40. Most of us that have built a GT40 to at least 50-70% could probably put a Cobra together within a month of having the parts. I think they recognize that building a GT40 is a quantum leap in complexity and just couldn't say "I am not sure I am capable of doing this." So, like Ron and others have said, they come up with drivel about minutea to help them save face. To me building a GT40 is very much like love: I would much rather have attempted and failed than not to have tried at all!

Regards,
Lynn

Bill D · 05-03-04, 10:05 AM

Hersh-

I was there watching the critic get in. I listened to your instructions, and feel they were very adequate. From looking at the car, it doesn't appear to be all that difficult getting in and out. Hell, at least you don't risk burning your legs (or your wife's/girlfriend's) on hot sidepipes as in a Cobra.

Several GT40 owners have mentioned that visability is somewhat diminshed in a GT40. But like someone else mentioned here, the GT40 was never made to be a street car.

I. for one, can live with entry/exit and diminished visability issues. These are not your standard daily driver production automobiles. They are classics intended to highlight the greatness of one car - the GT40.

Bill D

Hershal Byrd · 05-03-04, 11:17 AM

All of you make good points. The GT40 is not for everybody for sure and I too am glad for that. Being in a minority for this is the best. The Cobra is a blast to drive and it still commands lots of attention on outings. But when I take out the GT I am almost taken prisoner by the interest and questions people ask. I believe the GT gets 3 times the attention over the cobra. I got to admit, I like it though. Seeing a great design appreciated this way is surely fun when it's your GT.

Thanks again fella"s for the great responses.

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Bill Musarra · 05-03-04, 03:50 PM

Hershal,
Anyone who has owned or ridden in a Lotus knows there are several ways to enter and exit. Especially the females. When Joseph was starting to tell me how to enter his the first time, I was in it before he could finish as I was used to entering these kinds of cars without having to support myself.
Yes they are a challenge, but that's half the fun and mystique of the car.
Bill

andys · 05-03-04, 04:50 PM

Hersh,

I read that post on the FFR Forum. With regard to the visibility issue, I had to "Chime in."

"One of my racing bud's has a GTD GT40 replica. Biggest problem is not so much what you can't see, but rather that others' cannot see you....a big problem in traffic, according to him."

Hersh, do you find this to be true after 20K miles? Of course driving a GT40 in traffic you don't do much of anyway. Though I have only sat in a GT40, it is not too distant a feeling you get from a Lotus Europa.....I test drove a new one of those some years ago; sales agent handed me the keys, as he couldn't fit.

Sorry I missed you this year @ Knott's.

Andy

Ron Earp · 05-03-04, 08:09 PM

I drive my Lotus a lot, in heavy traffic, and I don't have too much of a problem with people seeing me. Yes, you need to be more aware than in a Honda but if you're used to motorcycles this comes naturally.

I've driven Hershal's 40 with a few others and yeah, you can't see all that well but you can see well enough. Hersh's mirrors are great on the silver car and work well. A good situational awareness and the ability to keep spatial relationships intact help too, something that I know all too well some folks completely lack.

If seeing out of a car is your only reason not to own one, well, I'm not sure the compromises that come with any true sports car are going to satisfy. Maybe a BMW M3 or similar would be more suitable. IMHO.