Roll over bars

A good friend of mine was killed on Sunday ! He was a senior development engineer for Ricardo, and a very experienced club race driver. At 54 years old he was no young hot shot, but very quick and competitive. Having raced many seasons in Formula Ford single seaters, he has over the last 5 years or so raced a road registered Caterham 7, fitted with a Caterham designed full roll over cage ( see the car in the attached picture )
He was killed on Sunday morning at 7 am on a quiet country road, meeting a parked Land Rover on a bend. My reason for this posting is my continued concern over the proximity to our egg shell skulls of these roll cages, particularly in a gt40 were frames pass across the front of the door top opening without curving around the screen line, as any frontal accident will impale our unprotected scull onto a solid steel bar with fatal results. No seat belt or Hans device will prevent a head moving the few inches that is needed to impact the forehead, and of course we dont normally wear a helmet when driving on a public road. No one wants or ever anticipates a direct frontal impact on our cars, but as in this case it does happen. Your thoughts ?
 

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Very sorry to hear about your friend, and it makes some food for thought. I am just in the process of considering 4 point roll cage options for the 40 I'm building, so any advice you have of position of the cage or suppliers would be greatly received. Its very difficult to correct a mistake in this area after the car has been built.
 
Frank,

Very sorry to hear of you loss.

Unfortunately sometimes it's a case of there by the grace of (insert your choice here) go I.

My '40 will be purely for road use and as such I have a rollbar behind the cockpit, but no full roll cage. I'm not sure what the answer is. It's impossible to design danger out of these cars completely with fuel sloshing by your right knee, no rear vision etc.

Sometimes in life you just have to play the odds, It's just so unfortunate that sometimes when the bell tolls, it does toll for thee.

Again, sorry to hear this news.

Graham.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My wife sometimes laments the racing hobby but as I tell her the race track is statistically a fairly safe place to be with accident statistics roughly inline with motorcycling or private aviation.

For our SCCA competition cars our roll bars must be padded with SFI foam in the head area. Not that it is guaranteed to do much, but it will soften the blow in comparison to a steel bar, particularly when taken into consideration with a driver with no helmet. My T70 gets some road use and I have to admit I've thought about wearing a helmet due to the cage impact possibility and the fact that driving it isn't unlike a motorcycle with the lack of real face protection.
 
Ron, looking at pictures of your T70, a helmet on any occasion would be a good idea. A stone or bird in the face at just about any speed can kill.
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
I'm sorry to hear of your loss Frank.... :(

I'm planning on using the high density SFI Foam on my roll-cage where body parts may come in contact. My thought is that the Foam over the steel cage will be less injurious than the other surrounding objects such as the dashboard, Fiberglass doors / Spider...
 
Frank I am sorry for your loss. While I have no recommendations for you at this time I would like to repeat my condolences.
 
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Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
My depest condolences Frank. It is always sad to loose a friend.

The irony of the roll cage as safety device being the culprit is particularly painful.

Naive question: Is there any way at all the front bar can be made removable and still meet requirements for track use? Even if it took half an hour to remove or replace it seems to me it would be worth it.
 
Frank - truly sorry to hear that you lost a good friend. And, even worse, that a piece of safety equipment, which one puts in place to protect, played a substantial role.

Any examples (and this is not just directed at Frank, I would love to hear anyone comment) of a more appropriately designed cage? I agree that strategically placed padding is a must, but even better to employ padding AND have a cage designed to protect without adding risk.

Thanks,

Ian
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Frank, sorry to hear about your friend.
High density foam and plenty of it will reduce the risk a little. Obviously wearing a helmet at all times is prudent but one would look a bit of a berk at the shopping mall.
 
What a terrible loss, and all the more ironic due to the fact that it apparently came about as a directly result of equipment whose mission is to promote safety and crash survivability. :huh:

I rode in a Pantera once (on the street) that had a full cage fitted. I was constantly hitting my head on the side bar as we went down the road, and was made acutely aware of the front bar just inches from my forehead. I decided then and there that I wouldn't put any such device in one of my cars. The likelihood of actually needing a full roll bar is remote, when compared to the likelihood of being involved in a more conventional collision. Most cars have padded upholstery at the sides and front to absorb impact forces; even though GT40s don't normally have that, at least the surfaces are further away than a roll cage bar would be.

Again, so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. It really sucks. :thumbsdown: But if there is one good thing that has come about, it's that we are all talking about this situation and considering ways to prevent further such incidents. That's about the only positive thing that comes from this terrible tragedy...
 
Frank,
Sorry to hear about your friend.
There are many companys that will furnish bolt in roll bars and cages. Just Google "bolt in roll bars"(406,000 hits). It gives the ability to have a cage/bar when needed and then remove it for street use. It also assures that the welding is uniform. getting good welds in an awkward position is eliminated.
I met the guys at Kirk Racing at a NASA event several years ago when they were first forming.
Kirk Racing Products
They are out of Mount Olive, Alabama and can do custom builds depending on the customers needs. Their bars are DOM steel and either bolt to plates welded in place or slip fit onto base plates. Making one for our cars might be a bit of a stretch, but I bet it could be done. Just would take some dismantling of the interior to get it in. Then again additional bars can be bolted in, to complete the set up such as the door bars or completion of a cage setup to give extra protection.
Everyday driving in a 40 puts us at risk just from the WOW factor of other drivers. Adding padding anywhere near our noggins is a + no matter how you slice it, with or without a helmet.

Bill
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
No seat belt or Hans device will prevent a head moving the few inches that is needed to impact the forehead, and of course we dont normally wear a helmet when driving on a public road. No one wants or ever anticipates a direct frontal impact on our cars, but as in this case it does happen. Your thoughts ?

Frank, et al: would it be acceptable to attach the front bar to the rest of the cage with a joint like this, and thus be able to remove it for road use?

EDO Cusco cage joint.jpg
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Hey Alan,

As Frank says, that arrangement won't be allowed for the majority of the world motorsports regulating bodies.

But, that doesn't matter for 99% of the cars on the forum. If you just want some additional protection for the odd track day then designs like that are acceptable and if well-designed it'll be much better than nothing. There are very few log-booked race cars on the forum that have to comply with modern UK or US safety regulations. If your car doesn't have a race log-book and there is not intention of ever going wheel to wheel with it then you don't need a sanctioned cage design. Still, the sanctioning designs are a good place to start.

Ron
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Hey Alan,

As Frank says, that arrangement won't be allowed for the majority of the world motorsports regulating bodies.

Be that as i may, what's the underlying logic? Is it simply that mechanical joints are not allowed at all, not allowed in that location, or is it the wrong kind of joint?
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Be that as i may, what's the underlying logic? Is it simply that mechanical joints are not allowed at all, not allowed in that location, or is it the wrong kind of joint?

You know, I'd have to get the GCR out to see if that specific one is disallowed or not. Most mechanical joints are not allowed. If you wished to review the SCCA cage specifications you could check here:

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%20Forms/2010%20Tech%20Forms/2010%20GCR-January.pdf

Randy is an SCCA tech inspector and he could provide more insight than I can (in fact, Randy, just saw you in the SCCA FastTrack this month). In general the main hoop must be fabricated from a single piece of DOM tubing of a certain thickness depending on weight and classification. The front hoop is generally the same, and the two have to be connected by welded DOM pieces generally incorporating down bars, NASCAR door bars, and roof bars.

But, like I wrote, rare are the cars on this forum that are going to have to abide by the General Competition Rules. So devise something that is safe, adds a bit of protection, and go that route. A SCCA-legal cage in a GT40 would make the car extremely difficult to get into and out of - for racing or street use. We get away with the usability on the T70 primarily because there is no top. If we had real doors and a coupe it'd be next to impossible to use the car.
 
Frank, sorry for the tragic loss of your friend. I do a few track days per year in my CAV GT40 and have often thought of installing a roll cage for protection against a roll over. However most GT40 replicas have no modern safety features such as ABS, traction control,side impact protection,crumple zones etc. and result of a head on collision is likely to be tragic with or without a roll cage.
 
Also sorry to hear about your friend's death. It's ironic but the only serious injury I had in 5 years of racing Mini Miglia in the UK was when my car hit the barrier on the outside of Quarry Corner at Castle Coombe Circuit. I broke a rib when it hit the driver's door impact bar of the roll cage. The impact was on the driver's side and the seat and mounting structure distorted about 6 inches sideways with the force of the impact. Not sure if I would have been better or worse off if I hadn't had the bar there.
 
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