Roll over bars
- Thread starter wealdenengineer
- Start date
+1 Frank. How I wish we could eliminate such tragic accidents.
Jason, recovery is very slow, she will never be the same exceptional girl she was, the damage is permanent but she is determined to overcome as many disabilities as she can and is fighting hard. Being permantly in a wheelchair is not what any of us would wish for. Following more recent severe injury and fatal accidents I am even more resolved to make known the dangers of steelwork in cars, even if that might upset a few people .
Agreed Frank.
That is why Superformance does not recommend the "R" car for street use. There are just too many steel tubes too close to your noggin for comfort and safety.
For street use we offer a bar behind the bulkhead that does not intrude into the cabin at all. While not as comprehensive as the full "R" cage, it gives rollover and some side protection with greater room and road safety.
I hope she makes a miraculous recovery, events like this are the sad downside to our hobby.
That is why Superformance does not recommend the "R" car for street use. There are just too many steel tubes too close to your noggin for comfort and safety.
For street use we offer a bar behind the bulkhead that does not intrude into the cabin at all. While not as comprehensive as the full "R" cage, it gives rollover and some side protection with greater room and road safety.
I hope she makes a miraculous recovery, events like this are the sad downside to our hobby.
Wise choice, Jason, I hope more will take that same view, Frank
Rick, that bar was not available when I ordered my SPF. Is it available for sale separately or is it welded into the tub at the factory?
It bolts or welds into the tub. It is sourced here in the States and does not come from the factory. We can supply it.
Last week I visited Frank and he convinced me not to have a full cage in my 40. Done in the correct way you will still have a stiffer structure and safer car.
As for the foam some of you suggest, this will only prevent getting a headache from minor/occasional bumps (hitting your head ever so slightly), but will not have much effect when in a real impact.
What I am really wondering about is whether fitting regular 3-point seat belts will actually work in a GT40. I can imagine the resistance in case of a collision is also engineered into them together with all the other safety devices and crumple zones of modern cars, so I am not sure if they will work. For now I think I will prefer a 6-point harness.
John
As for the foam some of you suggest, this will only prevent getting a headache from minor/occasional bumps (hitting your head ever so slightly), but will not have much effect when in a real impact.
What I am really wondering about is whether fitting regular 3-point seat belts will actually work in a GT40. I can imagine the resistance in case of a collision is also engineered into them together with all the other safety devices and crumple zones of modern cars, so I am not sure if they will work. For now I think I will prefer a 6-point harness.
John
If you want some idea of what happens in a crash take a look at some of these in car videos. These cars have shoulder harnesses and of course no air bags. Pay particular attention to the head movement. Most of these guys don't have Hans devices on either.
Bill
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTzbBRyOO0o]260 MPH Crash -- In Car Footage - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7opBXoUaeMg]rally crash inside car - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpsqXKQxhs]WRC Mexico Rally Day 1 Crash Raikkonen - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4wDhakoU4]Gronholm & Passonen Crash at same corner- WRC Rally GB 2002 - YouTube[/ame]
Bill
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTzbBRyOO0o]260 MPH Crash -- In Car Footage - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7opBXoUaeMg]rally crash inside car - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpsqXKQxhs]WRC Mexico Rally Day 1 Crash Raikkonen - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4wDhakoU4]Gronholm & Passonen Crash at same corner- WRC Rally GB 2002 - YouTube[/ame]
Ron Earp
Admin
A PROPERLY DESIGNED cage is a very good thing in a car that is going to see track duty. Why a cage? Have a look at any accident that involves a rollover or severe side impact. A car with a properly designed cage will be intact in all but the most severe accidents. The cage will prevent the driver compartment from being compromised and it'll prevent intrusion into the compartment from outside objects - other cars, trees, and the like,
GT40s present a problem though in that a cage will be close to the driver, at least for any cage that will include an upper halo. I would strongly recommend that if you have a GT40 with a cage then you also equip the car with a halo seat to prevent your head from hitting the side bar in an impact. Yep it'll be hard to get into, and nope, a halo seat isn't very period 60ish but neither is a roll cage.
If I had a 40 that was going to be used for racing or serious track work (and be realistic about your track usage), then it'd have to have a cage. If the 40 was for street use then I wouldn't cage it, at least I wouldn't cage it with much more than a over the seat bar and/or side bars.
GT40s present a problem though in that a cage will be close to the driver, at least for any cage that will include an upper halo. I would strongly recommend that if you have a GT40 with a cage then you also equip the car with a halo seat to prevent your head from hitting the side bar in an impact. Yep it'll be hard to get into, and nope, a halo seat isn't very period 60ish but neither is a roll cage.
If I had a 40 that was going to be used for racing or serious track work (and be realistic about your track usage), then it'd have to have a cage. If the 40 was for street use then I wouldn't cage it, at least I wouldn't cage it with much more than a over the seat bar and/or side bars.
Howard Jones
Supporter
I installed my "full cage" in my GTD because I was primarily concerned with being hit in side while on the street. Socker moms and their minivans freek me out. Then when I started doing track days the concerned became getting t boned in the center of the track if I spun and stalled it.
Frank is completely correct about the danger but for those who want to keep the cage in the car sofar we are agreed that the best possible padding must be applied. In the vane of what else can we do how about these. I know they are not full helmets but would they improve the situation at least a bit?
God bless you Frank and your friends.
Simpson Over-The-Wall Shorty Crew Helmets : Simpson Over-The-Wall Shorty Pit Crew Helmets : Simpson OTW Shorty Crew Helmets
Frank is completely correct about the danger but for those who want to keep the cage in the car sofar we are agreed that the best possible padding must be applied. In the vane of what else can we do how about these. I know they are not full helmets but would they improve the situation at least a bit?
God bless you Frank and your friends.
Simpson Over-The-Wall Shorty Crew Helmets : Simpson Over-The-Wall Shorty Pit Crew Helmets : Simpson OTW Shorty Crew Helmets
I would like to see how the rally cars go about interior bars. I have seen some of those guys get out of their car pretty quickly, and some of the interior shots show them rubbing up against the door panels with no seat protection against their sides.
Some time ago Tom and I had several discussions on padding for the cages. There are two levels of padding according to the sanctioning bodies. There is FIA and SFI 45.1. BSCI is one of the most recognized company with regards to roll bar padding research and products for use on bars as well as seat inserts and the like. You can investigate their products here:Rollbar Padding
They even have a dual padding setup for bars that come into constant contact with body parts(arms and legs). A softer outer covering that protects against low impact and a harder substance inside for high impacts.
Barring the most high impact situations, the head should not be coming into contact with a cage component(read any). To guard against that possible reality then, one should use an approved padding of the cage to the point that it protects against any "possible" contact with the cage. From the dash top to the back of the seat below the head level(at least). I would think that any cage uncovered is an accident waiting to happen, steet or track. On where do you place the roll bars/cages and how many points it should have is another discussion.
Bill
Some time ago Tom and I had several discussions on padding for the cages. There are two levels of padding according to the sanctioning bodies. There is FIA and SFI 45.1. BSCI is one of the most recognized company with regards to roll bar padding research and products for use on bars as well as seat inserts and the like. You can investigate their products here:Rollbar Padding
They even have a dual padding setup for bars that come into constant contact with body parts(arms and legs). A softer outer covering that protects against low impact and a harder substance inside for high impacts.
Barring the most high impact situations, the head should not be coming into contact with a cage component(read any). To guard against that possible reality then, one should use an approved padding of the cage to the point that it protects against any "possible" contact with the cage. From the dash top to the back of the seat below the head level(at least). I would think that any cage uncovered is an accident waiting to happen, steet or track. On where do you place the roll bars/cages and how many points it should have is another discussion.
Bill
+1 Frank, sorry to hear of Your loss, too. Just noticed that topic.
Last friday I was in local MOT-office (single purpose companys here; not garages of similar, just for MOT) and kept serious lesson to officers about dangers of roll cage in road car.
Underlined there must be 4-6 point belts with cage, and enough tolerance between head and tubes.
Foam padding when hard enough is ok, but when using a car in under FIA-rule competiton (like all my rallyings), then You must have FIA-type foam paddings. And that material is almost as hard as rock. When installing to my car (it, I hitted one narrow extra piece of it with 1 kg / 2,2 lbs hammer. Looks like black stryrox, but it didn`t crack, and there wasn`t any signs of hit... So I think it`s not good for Your skull, it`s ok only when using a helmet.
Last friday I was in local MOT-office (single purpose companys here; not garages of similar, just for MOT) and kept serious lesson to officers about dangers of roll cage in road car.
Underlined there must be 4-6 point belts with cage, and enough tolerance between head and tubes.
Foam padding when hard enough is ok, but when using a car in under FIA-rule competiton (like all my rallyings), then You must have FIA-type foam paddings. And that material is almost as hard as rock. When installing to my car (it, I hitted one narrow extra piece of it with 1 kg / 2,2 lbs hammer. Looks like black stryrox, but it didn`t crack, and there wasn`t any signs of hit... So I think it`s not good for Your skull, it`s ok only when using a helmet.
If any of you still doubt, please read professor Sid Watkins words on the vulnerability of drivers heads and the results of such head impact accidents. Sid Watkins was one of the worlds foremost medical consultants and head of the FIA medical team in Formula 1.if you want to get scared, read his autobiography and technical papers on head injury.
I have to agree with most of the above, motorsport seems to have gone too far in the safety cage design stakes where the answer always seems to be add more tube. After too many years of fixing unnecessary damage I would like to see more driver ability promoted rather than having to make every car into a tube maze before it can compete... might sound like an old fart with this, but we used to race the car we needed to drive to work on monday, race modifications consisted of some tape over the headlight glass & removal of the hubcaps along with the muffler if you were serious! I did that for about 5 years before I got really serious & built a dedicated track car, now maybe I was lucky, but I always had a car on monday morning & never got hurt, some of my modern day counterparts can barely get thru a weekend without replacing at least one corner on the car and the bullshit they have to comply with to actually race in what is essentially the same category/style of race is senseless....rant over...for now
Chris Kouba
Supporter
I had this for a cage:
After sitting in the car (once I got it together and running), I was not fond of how little space there was between it and my noggin. I snipped out the front hoop and connecting tubes and haven't thought twice about it. Now I just have the roll bar. When you sit in the seat and are confronted with it, it's easy to see it'll do more harm than good in the most likely situations.
At this point, the only way I would consider caging the car is if I removed the inner liner of the spider and tucked the bars up against the interior of the roof panel.
I assume certain risks when I choose to drive the car. I feel removing the front hoop reduced the risks to which I am exposed.
Condolences to Frank and his friend's family, and for those whose lives have been affected by accidents.
Chris
After sitting in the car (once I got it together and running), I was not fond of how little space there was between it and my noggin. I snipped out the front hoop and connecting tubes and haven't thought twice about it. Now I just have the roll bar. When you sit in the seat and are confronted with it, it's easy to see it'll do more harm than good in the most likely situations.
At this point, the only way I would consider caging the car is if I removed the inner liner of the spider and tucked the bars up against the interior of the roof panel.
I assume certain risks when I choose to drive the car. I feel removing the front hoop reduced the risks to which I am exposed.
Condolences to Frank and his friend's family, and for those whose lives have been affected by accidents.
Chris
