How much is it worth to you?

[Jimmy P]

Recently I viewed a thread which spoke of the "new" Kenny Thompson MKIV cars (7 of them I think) which were built and sold. Not sure all of them have been sold but I read they were being offered at around $750K. So after many years of owning my lowly CAV car (in comparison) which I bought for a comparative pittance I now know that any one of us (!) can buy a complete, drop dead, screw head accurate version of any one of the GT40 cars made. (unsure of the MKIII?)

GELSCOE can produce a perfect MK I car for about $4-600K
HOLMAN MOODY can produce a perfect MKII car for about $5-600K
KENNY THOMPSON has produced a perfect MKIV car for $750K

This begs the question (IMHO) if an original is worth between $2-12 million (for 1075 I'd think) and one can buy a very good and some might argue a great MKI and MK II from a number of sources for no more then say $150K then why would one pay between 4-800K for, dare I say, a replica?

Now don't get me wrong, if I win the lotto I WILL BE BUYING AN ORIGINAL GT40 and I'd be quite happy to buy any one of the above cars but the only thing that keeps going through my mind is this........and this happens at every car show I attend with my CAV.......people ask me is that a real /original GT40? Of course many of us know we're dealing with people who aren't totally familar with these cars when they ask this question because many of our cars are LH drive and have other clear signs they are not an original but if I spent between 4-800K for a car I'd at least want to say...Yes, Yes it is an original.

I guess the question I'm asking is why would a person spend that kind of money for a copy? I don't mean to offend anyone but if you have a brush stroke perfect copy of the Mona Lisa its still only a copy and not the original.

I know some of you will answer the question with......because they can! OK fair enough but still one has to admit its a huge amount to pay for a replica. Not sure I'd spend that but who knows.

Is there really 3-600K difference between a CAV, SPF, RCR, ERA etc and one of the above?

[Jon]

You will probably find its because they are eligible for historic racing series. They will have FIA technical papers.

So it depends how much you want to go racing.

[George]

So in otherwords, you still cant say its 'original' just like with the CAV, however, if they ask you "is it Original?!" you can reply "it is a GT40!".

looks to me out of that 600,000+ 150k of it gets you the car and the remainder gets you a piece of paper. Is the paper a sheet of Gold?

[Mark]

I often wonder why anyone would pay $500K+ for a copy of a car like these. I often read posts where people say, "look what else you could buy for that money, that would be the real deal", etc.

In my case, (P4's), you can't buy one! And it isn't always about FIA papers either. Many owners of cars like these don't race.

The nearest thing I can get to a P4, is to build one. Some folk may not want to spend 5 yrs to get there, but prefer to pay someone to produce an accurate copy. It is too easy to try to equate a purchase like this into 'tangible' terms.

These cars will be what they are and either they find a market or they don't. If someone wants to buy my P4 they are welcome to make an offer, if they don't, then I am fine hanging on to it. I built it because I wanted to and could afford to. I am not however, building it as a business. Those that offer cars like these, in this price bracket, as a business supplying replica's, clearly believe there is a market for them. If they sell, they were correct, if not...........

One thing is for sure, there is no way IMO, that these cars can be justifed in any 'rational' manner.

[Mike Drew]

In the case of the Mk IV cars, there is no alternative. You either buy one of the originals (which are unobtanium), or one of these limited copies. While the price seems eye-wateringly high, if you calculate the hours and expenses needed to build that limited run of cars, you'd likely find that the profits from the venture aren't nearly what you think.

While Holman-Moody has been offering a $600K Mk II for years, I don't know that he's actually been successful in selling many (or any, for that matter). Gelscoe manages to sell a handful of their cars because they have taken the time to make them absolutely perfect, and further taken the time to get the various high-end sanctioning bodies in Europe to accept them as 'original' cars.

The only replica currently on the market that approaches this level of originality is Superformance, but they do take some unfortunate (and in my view, largely unnecessary) deviations from the original specification. I suppose it's possible that at least some of those deviations serve to keep the price manageable, so there is probably the answer to the question you're looking for--if you want it to be absolutely original in specification and construction, it costs a fortune. If you take a few shortcuts here and there, the price then comes down and it becomes viable for a much larger number of people, which in turn makes the business plan viable.

Safir cars exist in a no-mans-land, as some people consider them 'real' while (most) others respect them but don't afford them 'real' status. I'm fairly certain the European sanctioning bodies don't view them in the same light as the Gelscoe cars, and their value suffers accordingly. But their pseudo-realness impacts their value such that they consistently command higher prices than Superformance cars.

The bottom line to your question really boils down to the intended use for the car. If it's just to be a fun road car and an occasional track-day car, then of course a conventional replica makes the most sense. However, if your ambitions are to vintage-race it in Europe, where they really care about originality, then you really have no option but to get one of these high-end replicas, unless you are going to stretch all the way to an original.

[Cliff Beer]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

You will probably find its because they are eligible for historic racing series. They will have FIA technical papers.

So it depends how much you want to go racing.

Not true. Not here, that's for sure.

Here in the Northwest of the USA, where vintage racing is governed by SOVREN (Society Of Vintage Racing ENthusiasts), you won't be able to take one vintage racing, FIA papers or not. Makes no difference what's the origin, or what papers it comes with, if it wasn't made before 1969 then it ain't getting out on the track. Simple.

This makes sense. Why should a guy who's nursing along a 40+ year old vintage race car have to compete against one that's brand new? That goes against both the spirit of vintage racing, and the competitive playing field.

If somebody is dumb enough to buy one of these uber-replicas thinking they can vintage race it wherever they want....and then finds out that they can't, well, that's just not doing your homework, and an expensive lesson.

[Mike S.]

As I see it. It's simple there are folks out there with more money than sense. Or they just want one but can't do it themselves & money is of little importance. Money may not buy you happiness. But with enough you can rent it for a while :-)
Mike S

[Jon]

It depends how much you are willing to pay for a car that you can actually race in the LeMans classic.

I'm not saying it makes a lot of sense, but here in Europe to be eligible for these types of races you need the papers, and cars that can get them fetch a significant premium over those that can not.

I dare say that you could build one of these yourself a lot cheaper, if you could get hold of the plans.

[TrevS]

If I had the money, I'd be on the phone to Jon and Andy at Gelscoe in a flash. Yes the cars are expensive but the time and dedication that goes into the production is something else. I see Gelscoe cars competing at all the big classic racing events such as Silverstones Classic, Spa 6 hours, Donington historic and for some people the races they can enter, the fact they can race side by side with original cars that are simply unobtainable and the love of the GT40 is enough for them to want one.

I've got no problem with accurate 'continuation' cars being entered into races. As the years go on I am sure more historic car owners will keep their cars (investments) in temperature controlled garages and museums than the racetrack so allowing continuation cars to compete keeps the grids full at events vintage car events that we all love.

Also I am not sure how many original cars racing are at a disadvantage to newer continuation cars as many cars will have had new components fitted to them when required so I doubt any of them are 100% as they rolled off the production line

[Jim Rosenthal]

Interestingly, Ronnie seems to feel that DB chassis cars are truer to the originals than Gelscoe chassis cars. But Gelscoe have done the spade work to get their cars eligible for FIA events, so you get to run those in Europe, which is a huge plus. I don't think I could get there with my car. Hard to tell.

[Mike S.]

You know there is another thing that occured to me. There is getting to be fewer & fewer of us that CAN or are willing. To build their own cars. None of my sons had auto shop in school (not even offered). More & more they only want the "white collar" jobs. As a consequence the number of able people dwindels every year. We all remember some of the really cool custom rods & show cars that guys like Ed Roth O Geo. Barris created. Now days you go to a "custom" car show & their idea of a custom. Is unbolt everything you car & have it chromed, gold plated or painted (by someone else). Then have the biggest loudest sound system you can shoe horn in installed (again usually by someone else). That's a "custom car"? None of my sons can do what I used to do at their age. Even though I tried to do the "father son" project cars. They just weren't interested in puting in the effort or getting their hands dirty. I started my first Rod project when I was a Junior in High School. A 23 T hot rod. Bought a 59 Chevy station waggon for $99 & tore it down for the engine, trans & rear end. built the chassis in the garage from steel tube etc. So I guess those "kids" would rather make the money keeping their fingernails clean & pay someone else to build the "Their" car. They don't seem to really take the pride or understand it maybe. Of saying "I did it myself" or "I built it" the stattus is having it & how much they paid for it.
Mike S

[TimB]

Originally Posted by Mike S.

You know there is another thing that occured to me. There is getting to be fewer & fewer of us that CAN or are willing. To build their own cars. None of my sons had auto shop in school (not even offered). More & more they only want the "white collar" jobs. As a consequence the number of able people dwindels every year. We all remember some of the really cool custom rods & show cars that guys like Ed Roth O Geo. Barris created. Now days you go to a "custom" car show & their idea of a custom. Is unbolt everything you car & have it chromed, gold plated or painted (by someone else). Then have the biggest loudest sound system you can shoe horn in installed (again usually by someone else). That's a "custom car"? None of my sons can do what I used to do at their age. Even though I tried to do the "father son" project cars. They just weren't interested in puting in the effort or getting their hands dirty. I started my first Rod project when I was a Junior in High School. A 23 T hot rod. Bought a 59 Chevy station waggon for $99 & tore it down for the engine, trans & rear end. built the chassis in the garage from steel tube etc. So I guess those "kids" would rather make the money keeping their fingernails clean & pay someone else to build the "Their" car. They don't seem to really take the pride or understand it maybe. Of saying "I did it myself" or "I built it" the stattus is having it & how much they paid for it.
Mike S

Unfortunately I agree though I am doing my best to raise my girls right

[Chris Headon]

Tim that second photo should be in a caption competition, if only I could have got any of my three to do that. as for the thread subject I agree with some earlier comments, If you have unlimited money and fancy a near perfect copy why would you not buy one of these, whatever the expected use? Having said that my MDA always gets that "Is it real" question, even though it has a 2006 number plate on it! To miss quote the famous Groucho - Originality is the name of the game - if you can fake that you've got it made.

[GTRene]

although original sounds uber, its also uber expensive and I would not dare to drive it like I stole it if I owned one
so, for me and in present days its better to own a good replica some day with modern suspension and tires and perhaps air-con and good but old style looking seats.

for the price of a good second hand replica say between 40<>80K you can drive it like you stole it and when something goes wrong parts can "easily" be arranged and or repairs not that costly, also you don't have all the stress as around owning a original from parking on the street or insurance or when something brakes or whatever
only downside if you can speak of such, is that you get many questions like is it real, but I could life with that if I own one some day.
you could answer yes the car is real as it is (its just not a real 60' GT40 as what they had in mind when the asked that question )
Or you can answer its a good replica of a GT40 from the past, this way I can drive it
like I stole it or do have the looks but do not have to deal with the stress of owning a original so can enjoy it more like the car is supposed to?

anyway, what is 'real' anyway

[John S]

Originally Posted by trevorsummers

Also I am not sure how many original cars racing are at a disadvantage to newer continuation cars as many cars will have had new components fitted to them when required so I doubt any of them are 100% as they rolled off the production line

There are quite a lot of cars which are raced in historic racing that have been further developed over the years. Many of the E-Type Jaguars, Aston Martins and Ferrari 250 GT SWB and 250 GTO's produce more horsepower, have better alignment, better brakes (material), ectetera and are much quicker than in the old days (also due to better tyre technology). Word has it that Nick Mason's 250 GTO is rather original and can't keep up with most of it's original competitors.

Apart from that it is also know that some owners prefer to keep the original chassis hanging on the wall and have a copy made for racing. Who can blame them?

John

[Jim Rosenthal]

Tim, the picture of the kid on the creeper with the wrench is extremely cool. I have one like that, too...(the kid, I mean- not the creeper or the wrench)

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Tim, the picture of the kid on the creeper with the wrench is extremely cool. I have one like that, too...(the kid, I mean- not the creeper or the wrench)

hahahahaha.

Nice! My 5 year old also likes to help... well more in a supervisory position!

[Cliff Beer]

If you've ever seen a 40 year old race car chassis stripped down, it generally ain't pretty. Often there's a lot of corrosion (most had no corrosion protection), and a whole history of bumps, dents, dings, shunts and general track damage. With care, such a chassis can be put right...to a degree...with a lot of work...but for the most part, most vintage race cars are driving around with a lot of this hiding under the paint. A new "recreation" car such as these uber-replicas have a distinct competitive advantage. Same goes for suspension, engine, etc.

The presence of "recreations" on the vintage race track is actually viewed as a deterrent by some vintage racers. Why? Because a) of the competitive advantage (see above), and b) the recreations can be driven-like-its-stolen due to it's lower cost v. the cost of an original. I've heard this from the owners of two different original GT40s, one of whom refuses to race his car in Europe any more due to the prevalence of modern "recreations" with FIA papers. I'm not saying this is how it's viewed by all original vintage race car owners, but there's most certainly a contingent that views it this way and it's lessening the involvement/presence of original cars for those folks. Where I live we don't have this issue because recreations aren't allowed on the track. We have a very active vintage racing community here.

No doubt these uber-replicas are extremely well built and desirable cars, and justify a very high price tag. All I'm saying is a) not everywhere are you going to be able to race one in the vintage races, and b) their presence is having an effect upon the presence/involvement of original cars.

[Alan Watkins]

Originally Posted by tractorboy

....why would a person spend that kind of money for a copy?

With all due respect to everyone involved, this queston is worn out. It's been asked and answered repeatedly on this forum and many other places on the internet. There has never been a good answer nor significant agreement. Asking it again of the same audience is not going to generate any new insights.

You can ask the same question about any non-life-sustaining or profit-making purchase. If you're looking for an explanation that is rational, you're not going to find it.

The only non-rational answer with a chance of achieving agreement is "because they have the money and they want to."

If the question is a rhetorical one (i.e. does not seek an answer but rather makes a statement) then it's just as legitimate to ask why someone would pay $2 million for an original when they can get an exact copy for so much less.

Next question please?

[Cliff Beer]

Alan,

Amen to that. I'll shut up now.