RF Update

[Ron Earp]

I've received notice from our attorney that Robert Logan has appointed administrators to Roaring Forties PTY LTD. Basically, from what I know, this means handling of the company is now in the hands of attorneys and the following will be determined in the interest of the creditors:

1) Have the company enter into a Deed of Company Arrangement
2) End the administration
3) Wind up the company

This occurred on March 21st and is matter of public record. It also goes on to list the debts, which are substantial even with out counting all the deposits owed at over $420,000 that I am aware of. On the 28th a meeting will be held to start discussions on how things proceed and for creditors to make claims.

The group plans to have an attorney there, but we're currently collecting funds amoung us to continue action and be represented there, it isn't inexpensive. I hope to know more regarding how the group will proceed.

Ron

[Pete.]

That is really bad news for all the people who paid deposits
and will now be very lucky if they recover any of it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/censored.gif[/img].

Ron, it is my experience when firms in OZ go bust the major creditors (tax office, and banks) get the lions share of any assets and suppliers and people who have paid deposits
get what is left. Normaly nothing.
Sorry to be a pessimist but that is the way of things.

[roaldin]

B^gger...

Tim.

[Mitch D]

I wonder who's deposit money is paying for Robert's lawyer(s)....

[Malcolm]

Actually the first guys to get paid are the Administrators! It is staggering just how much they pay themselves! I think this is going to have a depressing ending. I am sorry to say that but from my experience very little cash could come out of this.

[Keith Hardy]

[ QUOTE ]
That is really bad news for all the people who paid deposits
and will now be very lucky if they recover any of it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/censored.gif[/img].

Ron, it is my experience when firms in OZ go bust the major creditors (tax office, and banks) get the lions share of any assets and suppliers and people who have paid deposits
get what is left. Normaly nothing.
Sorry to be a pessimist but that is the way of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, in these situations unsecured creditors are usually f*****d over. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

It does beg the question for the future though...would you normally send large sums of money, unsecured, overseas for the purchase of "luxury" goods, or does an internet based trust relationship with the receiver of such funds, built up over time, dull (lull) the senses? I must admit, I would probably have too, but with 20/20 hindsight, it's not a very good idea when viewed objectively. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nono.gif[/img]

Having said that, even if it happened in your own country, the same result would have probably applied although due process would be cheaper. Such large deposits for work in progress require legal status such as escrow, but that still may not have helped some customers, as the deposit would still be "unsecured". For the benefit of future transactions, could such a large deposit be considered a commercial "loan" and charged against the business? After all, you are not paying for work yet done, merely to fund future build and materials, so therefore it is technically a loan. At least then you would be a secured creditor and have some chance at money back or goods in kind if the sh1t hit the proverbial.[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

[Richard O'Clery]

As Ron said, and from the public record, Roaring Forties Pty Ltd went into Administration on March 21st, and the Corporations Act 2001 (Australian company legislation) requires that the Adminisrators hold the 1st meeting of creditors within 5 working days of their appointment to determine the immediate future of the company.

I urge all everyone who has paid a deposit to contact the Administrators directly or through Ron's team, if you havent't already.

This is very important, because to have standing in the administration as a creditor you will need to lodge a proof of debt with the Administrators. They will also advise you about your rights as a creditor, may give you standing to vote at meetings of creditors and for against any proposed Deed of Company Arrangement (creditors' terms under which the company is allowed to trade on), and will give you copies of the minutes of those meetings, etc.

The Administrators are Richard Cauchi and Peter Gountzos of CJL Partners in Melbourne, and can be contacted on 61 3 9639 4779 or through www.cjlpartners.com.au.

As I said above, this is all public information, but if you are not a creditor please don't waste the administrators' time by contacting them; they won't give you any confidential information. I'm sure copies of the minutes of meetings of creditors will find their way onto the Forum in due course.

All the best to everyone involved.

[Malcolm]

If you are ever concerned about paying over a large deposit, request it be kept in Escrow. This means it is separate funds to the companys funds and so in liquidation it cannot be touched as easily, if at all. I think this has been mentioned elsewhere on this RF business.

But RF is not an exception, any company can go under, say like Exon or Courts or Little Joe Bloggs Ltd. Size is irrelevant.

Turnover is vanity, Profit is Sanity but Cashflow is King!

[Ben Buchsieb]

Malcom,

As being one of the ones with 50% down, this hurts. However, I did ask for Escrow while learning of the company in January 05 but Hershal said no. I just had to respond to this comment. In the end, I knew (and emphasized to my friend who also bought) that if our money goes overseas, there is very little chance of seeing it again if things go wrong. Of course I was scoffed at by everyone. "Robert is such a great guy" they all said...they still say it. Having seen other overseas transactions go bad, I was wary but not enough.

In the end folks, I was probably the 2nd most vocal guy here on the boards regarding the delay of delivery of our cars. My hat is off to your Oliver for your voice. I was not nearly vocal enough. The issue I saw was that everyone looked at this transaction so emotionally. I looked at it as business and because I did, I looked past everyone saying "just wait".

Everyone, do 2 things in the future: 1, look at your car transactions as business and 2, always ask hard questions, no matter how they want to push you aside.

Ben

[Keith Hardy]

Escrow yes Malcolm, but with the proviso that payment isn't made until goods are in bonded store for shipment or landed - not before. I can't think of many small businesses that could operate like that, but it is the best way for the customer. It just means "sufficient" capitalisation to begin with and again, I can't think of many small businesses that can claim that either!

[Oliver]

Gentlemen!

I did not mean to cause Ron and others on the forum such hostility. I understand very much that the purchase of our dream is very much a emotional buy. We want to believe that the manafacturers
have the same passions as the owners who's minds are constantly distracted with thought of going fast,skinning knuckles and generally enjoy the common passion with friends about cars cars which we really don't need. However, as Ben stated this is a business transaction and we get distracted with emotions. A common mistake. My mind is boggeled that people still protect Robert even with the information that Ron has reported about RF. These folks are the one's the will eventually get "BIT" and then understand why the "HARD QUESTIONS" NEED TO BE ASKED. Even when it applies to our families. Yes it provolks hard feelings but it is only to protect not to harm.

Have said that, I have One more "HARD QUESTION".

Were has HERSHAEL been since all this? He stated all the money stayed in USA and doesn't leave until the car is deliverd. He constantly offerd "MONEY BACK IF YOUR NOT HAPPY" Well Hershal People are not happy...WHERE IS THEIR MONEY? If the money never left the USA it should be given back with no problem's.

Where did the money go and when? Don't you think this is a "BIG RED FLAG" about the companies stability?. And if the funds were beng depleated it was Hershels resposibility to notify the customers of trouble. I feel that Hershal is very much partly the blame for the loss of the deposits that should have never left the USA. He bragged constantly of being a "EX-COP" Meaning "trust me i'm honest". well..we trusted you hershel..if somthing go's wrong he will surly tell us.. he's a "EX COP". I think he was so used to telling lies he does'nt even know the truth anymore.Or does He? I would DEMAND an explination. You made the money back offer. I think a judge would see him liable for fault??

I also think that he could have at least made a stament on the forum on his own behalf.
I think he owes some sort of anserw to the forum.

Also There was "Andre" The manager. We had been promised to have weekly updates ..what hapeend to him ? He dissapeared as quickly as he came. Did he realize what what going on and "GOT OUT OF DODGE"
because he new there was somthing wrong? This whole thing smelled. OLIVER [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif[/img]

[patbarry]

Very sad situtation. Terrible for those who put down money, and terrible for those employed. I was always treated excellently. As a business owner, it is a very sobering reminder of is always possible. Too sobering, so I'm going to have a drink. Hell, maybe a few.

[Richard J Cauchi]

I confirm that Peter Gountzos and I were appointed Joint and Several Administrators of Roaring Forties Pty Ltd on 21 March 2006 pursuant to a resolution of the company’s director in accordance with the provisions of Section 436A(1) of the Corporations Act 2001(“The Act”).

During the course of the Administration period I will be investigating the company’s affairs including the conduct of the company’s director and the associated relationship with the South African company CAMCO. I note the first meeting of creditors will be held on Tuesday, 28 March 2006 and should my appointment be confirmed at this meeting I am required by law to provide a detailed report to creditors to be sent on 13 April 2006 prior to the second creditors meeting scheduled to be held on Monday, 24 April 2006.

I note that the assets of the business are for sale and an advertisement which will be placed in The Australian Financial Review newspaper, expressions of interest should be directed to my office.

Should you have any queries or require any further information in respect to this matter, please contact Mr Tim Brace or Mr Marcus Paciocco of this office on the following:

Email
tbrace@cjlpartners.com.au
mpaciocco@cjlpartners.com.au

Telephone
61 03 9639 4779

Facsimile
61 03 9639 4773

Regards

Richard J Cauchi
Joint and Several Administrator

[Mitch D]

Anyone on the forum know what kind of house/property Robert has in Austalia? He transferred his house into his wife's name a few months ago - apparently he began some personal planning when it appeared things were going bad. If we have to go after his personal assets, I'd be interested to know the approximate value of the real property. The law allows, depending on the circumstances of the business actions during the last few months, that creditors can go after personal assets of the director(s) of the company.

If you're uncomfortable posting an answer publicly, please PM me.

Sorry to be blunt, but the good times are over.


Also - read the post prior to mine carefully - note that it says "should my appointment be confirmed....". These administrators were presumably not selected by the creditors, more likely they were appointed by Robert's lawyers. Come tuesday, we'll see what administrators the Creditors want to have appointed. It would appear when the party involved has a say in selecting his own administrators, they too often turn out to be "too favorable" for the involved party (Robert in this case). When creditors have a say in selecting the Administrator, he'll tend to have a more critical view.

Mitch D

[Mitch D]

Anyone seen Robert's Black MK II GT-40 replica recently? It hasn't been seen at/near the Australia factory recently.

MD

[SpyderMike]

I will chime in only to relate a similar experience I am going through on a business matter. I only want to put some perspective on the time line you all might be facing. I had a customer go BK and owe me money. It took about 2 years for the judgement to be won and about two years for us to sue again to try to collect the judgement - it included going after community property and his wife. We got our first check for part of the settlement this week. The payment schedule will take one year. If he defaults, then we go after his house and that takes longer. It is a long road to haul. The money wasn't important to us, but the thought of letting this guy go and possibly get away with this was. You go through periods of just giving up and wanting it to go away. Hopefully, the courts there are faster, but it is an endurance race and not a sprint. Not to be discouraging...in the end, it is the right thing to do.

Regards,
Mike

[Peter D]

The following comments are offered purely by way of open information & in no way represent my own opinions or assertions - they were obtained from a "normally reliable source" & are thus possibly worthy of consideration :


""

- The Logan's house was apparently purchased a couple of years ago (before RF SA) in Mrs. Logan's name - ie, no recent "sleight of hand".

- It has been suggested that the RF Oz jigs & molds are owned by Mrs. Logan & were rented to RF Oz.

- Indications are that the real problem started with "SA people" simply blowing the funds that RL provided on personal things as soon as he was out of the country, each time.

- It would appear that RL does not have the funds to pursue the SA individuals in a civil case.

""

Read into this what you will, but it does go some way to explaining the absolute vacuum of info from anyone involved in RFSA/Camco !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

[Gregg]

Peter, can your reliable source find out if the Logan's had a mortgage and if it has since been paid off? $400,000.00 is a lot of money to spend on personal items in South Africa. If that is the case, certainly mis-management by whomever controlled the funds in SA and/or by Robert if he continued to send money without personally going to SA to check up on his operation. The mortgage and its satisfaction if the case maybe, should be public record so no secrets here. Follow the money.

Edit: There has been a vacuum of information from all parties involved, not just RFSA/Camco.

[Gregg]

Just read my earlier post and it is not too clear. It appears that I combined two thoughts. Sorry about that. Went to bed late and back up by 3:15am. Peter, or anyone in Aussie for that matter, if you could find out if the Logan's had a mortgage on their home and if it was recently satisfied (paid in full), that may expalin where the funds went. The mortgage should be a matter of public record. It is in the US anyway. As far as mismanagement of the funds, $400,000.00 is a lot to waste on personal expenses but it could easily be done. If the money was spent on personal expenses, it would appear that the money was mis-managed and spent inappropriately. I would try to find out if someone other than Robert was writing checks in SA.

[Ben Buchsieb]

Peter,

Good points but it does not take away that Robert mislead those of us with down payments regarding the condition of the cars at the factory. This is not speculation