Care & Feeding of Knock-Off / On wheels

[Big-Foot]

Hi Guys,

I was tempted to put this in the RCR forum, but thought that others may not see the information there and need it..

So - the vast majority of my experience with wheels has been oriented about lug nuts. Knock-on wheels are relatively new to me (although I did work on an old Jag with them many years ago.

What I'd like to find out is this;

1) Thread Orientation - To tighten the Knock-off, you rotate it in the same direction of wheel travel (I.E. Left side tightens counter clockwise - Right side tightens Clockwise) - Correct?

2) How tight is tight enough? It's easy to use a torque wrench on lug nuts - not so easy with a 3-bar spinner. What's the secret?

3) Care of the threads and splines - In the world of lug nuts, I always recommend regular cleaning of the threads to remove rust, but never lubricate. I have a hard time believing that this would be the case with Alloy hubs and spinners as my experience has been to always lubricate alloy threads to keep them from galling. So it is with this thought that I would think a thing coating of anti-seize on the splines and threads may be a good idea. Your thoughts?

4) Wiring the spinners to keep them in place - I can't think of a reason not to but see so few cars that are actually wired. Anything you'd like to share?

5) Dissimilar metals - How to prevent corrosion between the knock off hub and the bolt-on spindle hub. I would think that a thin treatment of anti-sieze would be appropriate..

So - I ask you these questions my brothers in Forty.. What say you?

Thanks!!!

[Chris_K]

Randy,

I'm not the expert either but I did hear that anti-sieze is the answer. I have some on the threads, spinner and hub for all the reasons you mention.

I also believe in the wiring of the spinner but as mine is not yet running I haven't bothered.

The only thing I am not sure of is how tight is tight enough. I am curious to hear this one too.

[Malcolm]

I use a little copper slip on the threads and mating surfaces to prevent siezure.

In UK, drivers are odd and passengers are normal! At least when you look at the thread directions.

I use a leadshot filled mallet with rubber coating to knock on the spinners and un do them later. The lead shot stops the mallet bouncing off into the wheel rim. Avoid using metal hammers on the spinners unless you are in a real jam. A couple of good belts is normally tight enough for me. Also if doing track work it makes sense to check the wheels in between runs. Or on road use, before you go out each time. A quick tap on each spinner suffices.

I don't use lock wire but can see the sense in that if you don't want to take the wheels on and off regularly, something I do for safety checks etc. Some guys have safety pins instead which would be quicker and easier than lock wire.

[chuck smith]

tighten to the rear; counterclockwise on the right , clockwise on the left

thick application of anti seize

always wire ( there is some dissention on how to orient the wire) do you leave it a little loose so you can quickly check if it has tightened or do you tighten it down to prevent loosening of the spinner

[John Lowe]

Hi

Vintage wheels, who are a subscriber to the forum, have this on their website -technical section

Tri Wing Spinners
Tri wings to be torqued using a lead hammer of around 5lbs in weight and safety wired.
The safety wire must be pulling the spinner in the direction it tightens.
Adapters and tri wings are left and right hand thread; the RH thread is fitted to the left hand of the vehicle (looking forward from the rear of the vehicle)
A small amount of anti seize compound should be used on the mating surfaces of the wheel and the tri wing.

May be worth an email if further clarification is required.

John

[John Lowe]

Just found this at rdent.com (tools section) Unfortunately there are no torque figures.

John




Elan 3-Ear KO Tool
Remove and tighten your 3-ear KO nuts without damaging your wheels!
Stop damaging the chrome plating on your knock-ons!
You can properly tighten the wheel nuts with this tool and a breaker-bar with a 1" socket. This heavy-duty tool is made to last, and the protective leather liners are replaceable. Instructions included.
26T0341 Three-Ear KO Tool $130.00

[Bob Childress]

I agree with Chuck. The amount of loosing force that the wheel experiences from motor acceleration is insignificant compared to the suddent anti-rotational impact force placed on the hub when the car hits a pothole, curb, or obstruction. Having the spinners tighten in the direction of force from a pothole hit is the advice I have always heard.

Also, I hope I am not sidetracking this thread, but besides safety wire here are a few pictures of spinner lock methods I have seen. If someone knows a source for this sort of hardware, I would appreciate the reference.

[Dean Lampe]

Always saftey wire, period. Anti sieze everything. Tighten toward the rear. remember, tight ass! Hit it hard many times with a lead hammer. The lead hammer won't hurt your rims. The kit from Vintage Wheel is stamped L or R but they are stamped incorrectly on my car. Left is right, Right is wrong when talking about the threads. Left is the driver side.

[Julian West]

Originally Posted by Big-Foot

Hi Guys,

1) Thread Orientation - To tighten the Knock-off, you rotate it in the same direction of wheel travel (I.E. Left side tightens counter clockwise - Right side tightens Clockwise) - Correct?

Thanks!!!

Hi Big Foot!

I think you're wrong on no 1, my spinners are threaded as per Chucks description, ie

LH side of the car RH thread, rh side of the car LH thread.

In the UK as we drive on the left it's easy to remember "near side normal - off side odd"

Personally I give the spinners a quick whack with a mallet every time I drive the car & again when I stop (whilst the brakes are hot).

I found the six drive pegs had worked loose on the rear after the first hundred miles, I've since thread locked them back in place but will keep a careful eye on them.

Hope this helps!

Regards

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by bchildress

...Also, I hope I am not sidetracking this thread, but besides safety wire here are a few pictures of spinner lock methods I have seen. If someone knows a source for this sort of hardware, I would appreciate the reference.

Bob - No hijacking detectable from this perspective. My suggestion is, if any of the North American forum members is an SCCA member (there has to be one besides Ron), open up a recent copy of the national mag (been a few years but thought it was called 'SportsCar') and see what can be found in the classifieds. There used to be a gold mine of suppliers for all things sports-car-racing related there.

John - Appreciate the post. Other than the 'socket' that Jim G (I think) noted as finding some months back, this is the only other option I've seen.

But no torque figures yet...

Best,

T.

[Ian Anderson]

Thinking logically

Should the rear wheels not be tightened in the opposite rotation to the front?

Rear will put the power down quickly and the inertia in the wing will tend to have it staying still while the wheel turns this "staying still" should in effect tighten and not loosen the thread.

On the front the braking forces have the exact opposite effect.

So Right rear tightens anticlockwise
Left rear tightens Clockwise
Left front tightens Anticlockwise
Right front tightens Clockwise

I would however have some locking device fitted but on the Dax the whees are bolt on!

Ian

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

I've heard that theory put before too Ian, in fact the subject has been discussed on the forum before a long long time ago.

I remember it as 'nearside normal' - 'offside odd' - although this woud make it specific to countries where we drive on the left, ie UK etc.

Also - wire-locking is a good idea i'm sure, But in 10+ years, we've NEVER wire locked any of the wheels on Roy's GTD. Slicks or treads, we've only ever had a wheel come loose twice and on each occasion they were not actually located on the pins correctly in the first place!! ( they were fronts - don't ask)

In every other instance, they have seemed to actually get tighter. We normally use a 1lb soft headed/sand or shot filled - 'dead blow' hammer and copperslip on the thread/mating faces..

[Scott Calabro]

Bob,

The first one looks like what I would call a "PIP PIN" (Aviation slang)

The second and third ones I can buy at the hardware store.

The 4th one looks application specific.

The first four don't safety the nut, they just prevent it from coming totally off.

Of course the 5th looks like stainless wire. I would twist it inside a sheath though, to prevent marring my BRM's

S

[Jimmy M]

Most small commercial vehicles have left hand threads on the left side and right hand threads on the right.

Just to add another variation.........

JM

[Big-Foot]

Hi Guys,

Great info so far and I hope others chime in as well!

I'm wondering which is the proper thread for left -vs- right now...

If you look at the Chrysler Corporation cars of the mid 60's, they used Left hand threads on the lug nuts/studs on the left side of the car. These rotated counter(anti)Clockwise to tighten them.
This was supposed to be to counter the rotational forces that "supposedly" caused left-side lug nuts to come loose on cars. Odd that they abandoned the practice in the late 60's..

So - Which way is the "Correct" way on our cars?

[Dean Lampe]

Randy, I am telling you the right way to do this is tighten towards the rear. Clockwise on drivers side opposite on the passenger side. That is it. Don't mess around with this. Tighten them that way then use .032 safety wire to keep you safe. I don't mean to offend but that is the way it is done. You should ALWAYS safety wire you spinners. I don't care how tight you think they are.

[Cliff Beer]

I would tend to agree - always safety wire the spinners. This is particularly true where anti-seeze has been used to prevent galling of the alloy threads and the coefficient of friction is therefore less (making it easier for the spinner to unwind for the same torque setting). The aviation industry uses safety wiring extensively due to the vibration intensive environment and the high cost of failure (same as on a GT40 wheel). As to correct rotation IMHO it's not that significant which direction the spinner is rotated as, for example, a rear wheel experiences both/opposite rotational loads under braking and acceleration - the purpose of the spinner is simply to a) not unwind, b) so as to not allow the wheel to wobble and come off the pins and alignment provided by the hub facing. Just my $.02. Incidentally, I have had a wheel just about come off a car at speed - a 1964 E-type drophead while in college - but it was because the splines were shot allowing the wheel to rotate on the hub and work the spinner loose.