Can I...? Biggest brakes on 15" rims...?

I am after a bit of information or some suggestions for brakes to fit under a set of 15" BRM style wheels by Vintage Wheels. I would like to go as big as I could get under the rims...

I am intent on keeping 15" rims for the classic look, so I want to maximise the braking capacity... the car will be used for frequent road use and infrequent track use... more focus on lots of open road adventures...

What have others done? Alcon? Wilwood? Brembo? Other?
 

Rob

Lifetime Supporter
The RCRs (which is what I'm building) have 6 piston Wilwoods on Nascar 2 piece rotors which fit inside the 15" BRMs. I haven't been on track with them yet, but Dean Lampe and Ron McCall seem to be fairly pleased with them.
 
Thank you mate, I will investigate that option further... was this a set up you put together yourself or a kit you purchased?

I will check out your build thread.

Cheers!
 
Rob is right, I have had the car north of 150mph and had to brake hard to shed about 70mph into a corner with no shake or shimmy and I could have very easily locked them up. I am not even currently running brake ducting.
 
Dean,

Which pads are you running (sorry for the mild hijack, TMK)? I have BP-10 compound, but that is just my starter for the street.
 
I am not sure it is a hijack. Pads and fliud are every bit as important as the size. I run the Hawk Blue pads. They are dusty and a bit harsh for the road but are great on the track. Zero fade and aggressive bite at mid to upper tempurature ranges. The fluid is Willwood 600+. Any fluid under $20 a pint isn't good enough for the track.
 

Dave Bilyk

Dave Bilyk
Supporter
TMK-001, do you have a name?:)
My front brakes are Wilwood 160-7705/6 310mm x 21mm rotors with 120-8070/1 Superlite Narrow Radial 4 Pot Calipers (No servos). Not hit the road with them yet, but sure they will be more than adequate. The 310 disc gives the largest brakes which fit comfortably inside my 3 piece 15in wheels (365mm ID)
On the question of choice and brake balance, I started by choosing the rear brakes first because the handbrake issue was more difficult to solve, and also ended up with 310mm discs, but used hispec 4 pot handbrake calipers. When I looked at the front brakes, I considered the 6 pots, but they have significantly less total piston area than the 4 pots and so did not give a good front / rear brake balance for me, more than adequate though as Dean has demonstrated on the track.

Dave
 
Dave, Dean, etc...

Thank you for your comments. I am looking for as much information as I can get. We have purchased a GT40's Australia going car and looking at going for a classic look as much as we can, but with some decent performance. I cant guarantee the car wont ever go over 150mph, so would like to have good stopping power to match the handling and the mojo of the GT40...

We are cobra people... some of you might know my dad... we are Aussies... dad toured the US - including Route 66, the Run & Gun and Shelby Convention - in a RF40 a few years ago and had an article in Kit Car about him...

;)

:D

Cheers,

Todd
 
Mmmm good to have a son who is interested in setting up the car for me Dean.

The disc arrived but was blank. I sent you a PM on the club cobra forum.

Yes I swapped the old Cobra for the near finished GT40.

Sorry to see it go, but oooh well.

So I'll be over here on the GT40 site annoying you guys now.

I just found I was logged on as 'GT40 Aussie Kid'. Mmm but think I'm on here as Bernie Knight somewhere. Guess Ron will sort that out.

:3DSMILE: mmm doesn't get the icons up on this site.

As TMK - Todd mentioned above, I have been floating about for a while with my Cobra on the club cobra forum.

I have spent a lot of time attending auto events in your fine country USA.

Run N Gun, SAAC, London Ohio, Midstates,Pavillions in Az. and Santa Barbara, Palm Springs and the many other events in Cal.

AS soon as I get a chance I'll get some photos on site and fill out the introduction page.

Until then stay safe.

Bernie
 
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OMG, I cannot wait. Until my current Lotus, I had never been on track with a car under some 3500 pounds. The trend today is for manufacturers to put on these huge rotors and giant calipers, but with a 2 ton car, it still is not enough. The Lotus has brakes that don't seem much bigger than my mountain bike discs (which are pretty big, I'll admit). They look like fricken' toys next to some of the things out today. But they will haul that car down over and over and over again on stock pads and stock fluid.

The trick to good brakes is not to NEED big ones. With a car sub 2500 pounds, it won't take much to have fantastic brakes. If I am not mistaken, you will have no problem finding pads to get you all the friction you need. And you won't generate near the heat, so huge rotors and 6-piston calipers are not necessary.

Of course, if you have an RCR, you have brakes designed to slow a 3400 pound car in a race for 500 miles... should be adequate for me! :)
 
FWIW, my Pantera has 15x8 and 15x10 wheels. It's equipped with four-piston Wilwood calipers, and approx 12x1.25 inch vented rotors (the lowest spec Wilwood offers, unfortunately). I originally had Wilwood's 'gator' pads (which were painted lime green). Those worked fine with power assist, but put out an awful amount of dust.

That was their 'best' compromise street/track pad in the early 90s, but times have changed. Wilwood has come up with what they call 'smart' pads, BP10 and BP20.

I have the BP20 pads, although in looking at their website, they don't list them anymore??? They were just slightly better than the BP10 which is still there.

Go here: Wilwood High Performance Brake Pads

That shows all the different pad compounds available; you can also see graphs which chart coefficient of friction (Cf) versus temperature. The BP10 is especially linear, giving great friction (and most importantly, the SAME friction) across a very broad temperature range. Wilwood pads are manufactured by Raybestos, by the way.

In my 427 Cobra replica, I have the same Wilwood Superlite II calipers, but it is equipped with Hawk HP+ pads, which are also fantastic. The rotors are of unknown manufacture, but are about 12x1.25 inches also. The Hawks are terrific too, and again, have substantially less dust (and much better performance) than the green Gator pads it also had originally.

Although lots of people like to put huge sexy brakes on their cars, with rotors the size of dinner trays, the simple fact is that tires will always be the limiting factor; with these 'small' four-piston Wilwood calipers and 12-inch rotors, you will NEVER come close to running out of brakes. You will be able to perform max-effort stops again and again, and won't experience any measurable fade from the brakes; the tires will lock up before the brakes can absorb enough energy to get them hot enough to degrade measurably.

It's also worth mentioning that more isn't always better; the six-piston Wilwood calipers actually have a smaller surface area than the four-piston calipers, and thus have less 'grip' for a given amount of hydraulic (brake pedal) pressure. All of that can be dialed in if you are a math whiz and can calculate the surface area of your master cylinder piston(s) versus your brake caliper pistons. I just took the easy way out and bought a bolt-on kit for the Pantera, which works perfectly. :>)

Wilwood rotors, at least the cheaper ones (and even the most expensive are still pretty cheap) actually aren't very good at all, I found out. When new, if you look at them hard, they'll warp. Mine warped something wicked with only about 500 miles of use (light use at that), and I had to have them turned. 500 miles later, the car was almost undriveable because they'd warped again! I had all four rotors turned on the car (a brilliant idea, much better than removing them and having them turned on the hub), and since then, they have settled down and are now bloody perfect. :>)
 
Mike, I think you advice is spot on and well thought out. I would agree with you generally that big dinner plate sized rotors shouldn't be necessary on a lighter (2,500lbs or less) car with good and appropriately sized tires. There are however a couple of sub-points in the analysis which perhaps you or others here could help me understand - specifically, wouldn't healthy sized rotors and pads (ie. larger swept area) help to promote a) more precise modulation of pedal/piston pressure to better control braking just short of lockup, and b) more quickly and efficiently transfer heat from the pad/rotor interface to the rest of the rotor and, ultimately, the spindle and hub all other things being equal? These seem like desirable characteristics for reliable and effective and fade-resistent brakes, no?
 
One thing that many possibly not aware of in having larger rotor dia's is the increase in steering effort reqd at higher speeds. The extra mass along with the dia results in a greater gyroscopic stability effect .

Rotor warpage- while you can spend the extra $$$ and buy rotors that already had ;heat cycles-bed in- & cryo treats, the single best thing that you the driver can do is avoid heat sink after a hot lap session or perhaps a few hard stops or continous brake use down steep roads etc, is to keep driving the car for a few minutes after the brake usage. If thats not feasable in a track day situation have a couple of helpers roll the car backwards/forwards thru a couple of tyre rotations for a couple of minutes- this will prevent the heat in the pads/calipers from soaking on one area of the rotor.

Good brakes are a great thing, but remember in traffic that while you might be able to stop on a dime, Ma & Pa out for a sunday drive might not be able to. A Chevy sedan perched on top of your transaxle wont be good look in mondays paper.

Jac Mac
 
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