How to make the change to knock on/off wheels

My wheels are bolt on but I have an opportunity to purchase a set of vintage knock-offs. I'd like to make the change, but I don't know much at all about wheel hubs. I'm trying to research the subject and have ordered a book on suspension, but I'm going to have to make the decision pretty soon. I know there are adapter kits, but can someone give me an idea of what is involved in converting (or replacing) the hubs themselves?
Thanks
 

Mark Charlton

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
John,

In absence of any other replies, the conversion SHOULD be fairly simple. Assuming that the bolt pattern of the vintage (old) wheels matches that of your car, you would only need to acquire a set of wheel adapters from someone (Vintage Wheels USA has some but there are others, I'm sure). These adapters bolt to your existing studs (which may need to be shortened) and the special nuts (inside threaded cylinders with a hex end for tightening) that hold the adapters to your wheels MUST line up (and fit into) the stud holes on the back of the wheels. I know that the Vintage Wheel adapters come in either a standard USA Ford 4.5" bolt pattern and thread, or a metric one. You will need to ensure that the wheels you are looking at have the same bolt spacing as your car or it will not work.

Of course, the other thing you will need to do is verify that the back spacing is correct for your car. The adapter does add 1/4" or so and while the wheels sold with adapters have taken this into account, your vintage (old) wheels may not have the same allowance. The safest route is to buy a complete set designed for your car so you know it will all fit together properly.

Mark
 
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John, as the bolt on adapters push the wheel further out from the hub, you should check the position of the wheel in relation to the KPI line angle, and make sure that the intersection line is correctly positioned under the tyre at the recommended position, otherwise you get some very strange handling problems.
 
Mr. Fitzpatrick is talking about "vintage" wheels, by which I suspect means 6-pin, not 5-pin. So, we'll need a clarification on that.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
When I bought my Image wheels, the vendor was preparing to offer custom made adapters for centerlock systems made to fit whatever pattern you need. I believe he said it increased offset by 3/8".
 
I haven't had a chance to see the wheels yet as they are owned my a museum in another state, but they are Panasport JJ (I think that references the bead style). There is a spacer between the hub flange and the inside face of the wheel on my car, and 3/8" sounds about right. I won't go into further detail as it is not a GT-40 and the specifics won't be of interest to the group as a whole. I posted here because, while not a Ford, it is a 1966 racing car and there is probably some overlap in the hub/wheel technology.

My main concern is, if an adapter won't work, do you begin with an existing knock-off hub, say from an XK-E, and adapt it to your suspension or can the studs in the existing hub be removed and a spindle and locating ring be installed in/on it? And I know with enough money anything is possible, but a couple of thousand dollars is the realistic limit here (excluding the wheels).
 

Brian Kissel

Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Hello John !!

I have a new set of 4 adapters, that I am not going to use. There are two rights, and two lefts. They have a large chrome nut instead of a knock off however. If you would like pictures, or dimensions, please drop me a line at [email protected]

At one time, I had them drawn up in pro e if I remember correctly. If I can help, let me know.

Kindest Regards
Brian Kissel
 
Perfect tread for me:)

Recived these wheels yesterday:
Halibrand magnesium wheels | Facebook

They are old Halibrands in 15" x 10" and 15" x 14" in magnesium used on a old BRM F1 car in the -60's. I got them to a price that I just HAD to say yes too. They are 6-pin, and center ot the pins are 11 cm or 4 1/3", and the center hole is 7 cm, or 2 3/4".

Now, I have a Ford boltpattern of 5 x 4,5". Any idea or recepie to what I can use (from who) or what I have to do to mount them?
 
John:
I know from speaking to Bob Lacey at Vintage wheels that he will drill his adapters to any bolt circle you want. The problem may be the size of the snout on your wheels. I could not use his adapters as my wheels had a smaller diam. snout and the bolt center would have interfered with the base of the adapter.
My solution was to fab an entirely new hub for the front and rear, and the wheels fit fine.
As far as the thickness of the adapter face, I kept the original 56" track width by machining the new hubs with allowance for the 3/8 thickness of the adapter. I didn't want to add to the scrub radius ( As was mentioned by Wealdonengineer).
Anything can be done but the cost may be prohibitive.
I don't have any photos of the hubs at the moment, but can post them tonight if you are interested in the way I solved the mounting problem.
Cheers
Phil
 
Brian- My wheels are 13" (diameter, not width!) so your adapter is probably not going to be a match, but thank you for the reply
Phil- If your drawings aren't proprietary, I'd appreciate seeing what's involved in matching up the hub, spindle and rotor.
Mark and Frank - Thanks for the heads up, gentlemen. I'm going to have to read up on scrub radius now, as I was thinking it related to tire aspect ratio and flex. Seems like the more I learn, the less I realize I know.
Paal - Boggie had a term for objects like your wheels YouTube - The Stuff that Dreams are made of
 
Here are two photos of the front hub and adapter. The hub is a 6061 billet piece with a 3/8" setback to allow for the thickness of the adapter. The adapter is 7075 along with the nut.
This setup allowed me to keep original track and minimize the scrub radius, along with clearance under the body as I am running 10" wide wheels in front.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Phil
 

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Phil, what wheels are you running? If it would be possible, I too would like to see your drawings on the adaptors if possible. Seems very much like what I need.

If you could, please e-mail me them at: [email protected]
 
John, Paal:
I will dig up my drawing and try to get you guys some info tonight.
As far as the wheels ...I am running a set of magnesium wheels, made by Dimag, don't think they are in production anymore. The specs are 15 X 10 front, with 4 7/8 backspace, rear is 15 X 14 with a 4 7/8 backspace. These are essentially the same spec as the Gulf BRM wheel. The important thing to note is that the 10" wide front wheel essentially bolts up near center, and there must be adequate clearance for ball joints, steering link, caliper, chassis under full lock etc., the plus is the scrub radius is short, and tires fit under the body. I will try to post some more photos tonight.
Cheers
Phil
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Here are two photos of the front hub and adapter. The hub is a 6061 billet piece with a 3/8" setback to allow for the thickness of the adapter. The adapter is 7075 along with the nut.
This setup allowed me to keep original track and minimize the scrub radius, along with clearance under the body as I am running 10" wide wheels in front.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Phil

I'm going to play the dumbest guy in the room for a moment:
Where on these pieces (or typical adapter) does the wheel actually make contact? Which protion of these adapters indexes the wheel, and does the wheel actually rest against the face flange? I've been given several different explanations locally, of which none registered as "plausible" in my mind.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Thanks John!

If the drawing is technically acurate, then the wheel is pressed onto the face flange by the centerlocking nut. I am assuming there is a reasonably close fit between the center tube and the wheel's center hub hole to ensure hub centricity?
 
I am absolutely no expert on this.....that said, I believe the wheel can be maintained concentric with the hub in several ways. I'm not sure that "spindle" and "wheel bore" are the correct terms to use, but in '63 my first car, a TR-3, had grooves in the wheel bore that mated with the splines on the hub spindle. The spindle had a taper that matched one in the wheel bore and the lug snugged the wheel up tight against it which kept it concentric. As I remember, the lugs had "DO" and "UNDO" stamped on them with appropriate arrows, which always made me smile when it came time to whack one off with the lead hammer.

I suppose the rear wheels were driven by the splines, and while that was good enough for the TR, it may not be appropriate for a high torque engine. I've seen the term "Pin Drive" used, but someone else is going to have to explain that one.

Sadly, I had to pass on the wheels that started this topic since the rims were far too narrow, but I appreciate the replies and would still like to see some photos and drawings.

John
 
Sorry for the delay gents:
I found my drawings and I need to scan them and get them posted.
To answer Terry's question the wheel is hub centric, and drives off the pins. The pins fit quite closely in the bores in the wheel, and sometimes it can be tough mounting a wheel without the brakes locked.
The pins need to fit well as on the rear there is the transition from power applied to braking force applied in the opposite direction. One would not want a sloppy fit here.
The front wheels see only braking so there is essentially one direction the pins are holding the wheel from rotating.
The adapter face is dead flat, and in these particular wheels I am using the contact is about a 1" wide face on the wheel, with the nut maintaining contact between the wheel and adapter face.
I use a 3/4 drive breaker bar and I am estimating about 250 lbs/ft on the nuts.
When mounting the wheels, just touching-up the nuts with a slight pull on the bar really makes the wheel fit tightly, but the torque is needed to maintain contact between the wheel and adapter face.
I also use a good anti-seize compound on the nuts as they can get stuck and are a major hassle if they do.
I will post my drawings tomorrow and hopefully they will help somewhat.
Cheers
Phil
 
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