Planning a future ERA replica build...opinions plz

[bclough]

Ford produced three different engnes of 351ci displacement. They're known as the "Cleveland", "Modified", and "Winsor" types. All share the same bore spacing, bore size, and stroke length.

The 351W or "Winsor" motor, is named after the Winsor Onterio engine plant, where it was manufactured. This is the only 351 that's "related" to the main small block family, (221, 260, 289, 302). The difference is that the 351W has a taller deck, the distance from the main bearings to the cylinder head mating surface. This makes the 351W taller, wider, and heavier than the 302. This is readily aparant when looking at the intake manifolds from the 351W and 302, side by side.

F.Y.I. The Cleveland motor is also named after the plant where it was created. It's somewhat "beefier" than the 351W, though it shares the lower deck height of the 302. It was intended as a performance motor, and has features like smaller diameter main bearings to reduce friction and larger valves to improve "breathing".

The 351M started out as the 400, a more utilitarian version of the 351C. The 400 has a raised deck, like the 351W, and was used full size cars and smaller trucks, in the early '70s. The 351M is simply a "de-stroked" 400, retianing the taller deck and "workin' class" features of the larger motor.

"Back in the day" the 351C was considered the only 351 for the performance enhusiast. The 351W and 351M were restricted by the designs of their heads.

Now, with aftermarket heads and other bolt-on options available, the "tall deck" 351s are just as attractive for performance applications as the Clevelanad.

[TravisM]

cool thanks guys... anybody know a good place to order one?
also, Is one still considered "sub-optimal" to the other, and is there a big diff. in price?

Thanks!

[bclough]

The place I've been looking is Powerpro 2000. They sell mostly long blocks, but will sell short blocks too.

If you're feeling more adventurous, go to your local "automotive recycling center" (junk yard), get an engine, and rebuild it yourself.

Remember that none of these engines have been made for quite some time. The 351C was only produced from '71 to '74. The 351M only lasted 'til the early '80s, and the 5.4L (renamed 351W) was dropped when the new modular OHC engines came along.

You won't get any kind of performance out of a stock 351W or M. With either of those, you'll need to at least replace the cylinder heads, cam, and carb. You'll probaly also want to do the pistons, ignition, rocker arms, and several other components as well.

However, these "tall deck" motors are not the same size and shape at the Mk I GT40's original 289. If you want to maintain the traditional look, you'll probably want to use a 302. You can bore it a little, stroke it a little, and wind up with nearly the same displacement as a 351. I've seen writeups of "junkyard special" 302 blocks built up to put out 450hp, 390 ft-lb, without resorting to forced induction, fuel injection, or other exotic enhancements. They just used a good cam, good heads, and a few other bolt on HiPerf accessories. The all-up cost was about $6000.

[TravisM]

Alright I did a little searching and found this which looks pretty nice... stroked short block 351W ... Is that a pretty good deal, or should I keep looking?

I will put AFR heads on it, but what cc runners should I get... do you think the 185's at the bottom of the page would be fine or should I go bigger because if Im going to spend some big money on this I might a well spend a little more to get the best bang, you know...

What kind of lifters should I go with? Rollers right?

Also where can I get an 8tb EFI setup for this engine/head combo and what kind of ECU should I use?

I dont really know much about it but what is a dry sump oil system and should I do that or just get a normal oil pan?

Should I just go with their while setup? heh... sorry, I still have a lot to learn...

Thanks a lot guys!!! Travis.

[bclough]

I'm still learning myself, but I've found some information that might help.

You should look at TWM Induction for 351W. The TWM site also has links to ECU manufacturer's sites. FYI, at the auto show last weekend, many of the race cars on display used Motec M48s.

You might look into Desktop Dyno 2000, a software package that lets you simulate almost any combination of engine components.

A dry sump is an oil system in which the pan doesn't serve as the reservoir. There's a second oil pump called a scavange pump, that removes any oil that drains into the bottom of the crankcase. It moved this sump oil to a reservoir mounted somewhere in the engine compartment. The pressure pump takes oil from this tank and forces it throughout the engine.

Most places I've seen recommend roller lifters, and a matching cam. Remember, roller lifters and solid lifters need different types of cams. One more link Comp Cams

[TravisM]

Thanks Man!!!

Anyone else wanna chime in? Like... is that engine a good deal?
what cc runners should I get in my AFR heads?
anyone know where to pick up EFI setups and ECU's cheap?

Thanks Everyone! Travis.

[John]

the prices on that site you posted the link to are a bit high in my opinion. Check out the packages at www.enginefactory.com

John

[Eric]

If you want cheap, it will cost you some time and effort on the ecu side of things, this is what i am building
http://www.squirrelpf.com/msavr/index.php?page=MS-AVR
I understand nothing of programming but figured this out easy enough, i have a basic understanding of electronics, this is easy. I can solder well enough , i think.

[Ron Earp]

The engine factory prices don't seem that good really. For instance, their 342/347:

----
• New Sportsman 302 Roller version Block
meticulously machined to accept Stroker crankshaft
• Brand New Scat Cast Steel Stroker Crankshaft
• SAE 4130 Forged Steel connecting Rods w/ ARP heavy duty Retaining Bolts
• Keith Black 10.5 to 1 Compression Hyperuetectic
Flat Top Performance Pistons
• Sealed Power Moly Rings
• Heavy Duty Double Roller Dynagear Timing Set
• Comp Cams Hydraulic Steel Roller
Cam 2500-6500 RPM Power Range
• Clevite Street Racing Bearings
• Aluminum fast burn Edelbrock RPM cylinder heads
with stainless steel valves, hardened valve locks and
chrome moly retainers and HD Springs • Chrome Moly pushrods
• High Intensity Magnum Roller Rockers
• Melling Oil High Volume Oil pump
• Complete Fel-pro Gasket set
• Factory Replacement Harmonic Balancer
• New Flexplate for Automatic Trans.
(SFI Approved Std. add $300)
• Oil pan, Timing cover and Chrome
Baffled Valve Covers
• Installation Video Included
$5,195.00 - For assembled Long Block Parts listed Above
-----

This is using a cast crank and Eldebrock heads. For similar money at Coast, DDS, or KK you can get more Ford experience, AFR heads, spec camshaft, and a forged crank motor for the same dollar.

[John]

Good to hear Ron. I'm just starting to look at engine builders and price the job! Thus far engine factory looked like a good buy. Always good to hear of other alternatives. Last time I shopped for an engine it was for a small block Chevy and there were hundreds of options! Seems like much fewer people building Ford engines... or perhaps I just need to keep looking.

John

[Ian K]

Actually, DSS is getting rather expensive, but is still
a great product.

For those with bottomless bank accounts, you can now get
your Street Renegade stroker with either a Dart block ($400
add) or a Dart Aluminum block ($2500 add). So, if you have
$10K laying around [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But, to emphasize what everyone is saying, a good Windsor small
block, stroked or not, can provide plenty of power, even for
the full time track dudes. 500HP+ is not really necessary
for a GT40 to demonstrate it's bloodlines and creds.

Ian

[Howard Jones]

BEFORE you shop motor you had better shop drivetrain! At the power levels you are talking about here, > 500hp, the low cost gearboxes most of us are using just won't work. Read all the stuff on this forum on gearboxes FIRST!!!! A last note. At 550hp you will be spending more on the gearbox than the motor for sure. Something on the order of 10 grand and on up. Do you REALLY want a 20,000 dollar plus drivetrain?

My advice for what it's worth, not much I suspect, is this. Put a 350hp 302 mated to a audi in the car and enjoy!! Less is more. Spend the rest on brakes.

[Ron Earp]

If you're looking for a first motor and don't want to drop a bundle or lose a lot because after your first one your specs/wants will change, here is what you do:

1. Locate a 5.0L HO motor from a 91-93 Tbird/Cougar or 89-95 Mustang. Reasonable miles, <60000k. Good runner. Don't pay more than $600, they are available in the SE for this easily.
2. Call AFR. Order some AFR 185 aluminum heads, assembled. $1300. Mill heads for compression as much as you can with stock pistons.
3. Call Edelbrock, order an AirGap intake for 302. Get one of their carbs while at it or choose another type. $500.
4. Call Comp cams, get a cam that will make power from 3500-6200. Get as much lift as you can without whacking valves. $250.

Assemble and enjoy a solid 300hp motor that won't break (provided the motor was okay and stockers I've pulled apart at that mileage have looked great!). All for about $2600. Get used Audi gearbox for $200, check it and rebuild for $300, and bolt it up. You're ready to go on the first iteration.

You could change out a lot of stuff but my point is go easy on the first motor, get one that runs, then go for something more extravagant.

OH! And, you can sell a bunch of stuff from the motor to recoup investment - intake $30, heads $25, other bits and pieces around $30 so that helps even more.

[Steve Toner]

Travis,

Georgia is probably not a problem, but do check the smog laws in your state/county before buying an engine. Some places base emission requirements on the year of the engine. In that case, your choices are more limited (probably to 1968 302 or any year 289) if you don't want to have to include all the smog equipment (could include things like thermactor pump, EGR valve, closed crankcase, catalytic converter, ...) that would have been included in a vehicle with that year's engine...

[TravisM]

Wow... Ron.... thank you... lol, I should have thought of that myself... get it running, then go extravagant later... that is good advice... Thanks! Thank you all for your help with everything and thanks to Steve for reminding me about emmisions... (even though I do know a person that does emmisions that wouldnt hesitate to hook me up... definately a good thing to bring up though.)

I think I will just go easy on the first engine... I might start it now for fun... anyways, where can I grab an audi gearbox for that cheap (and does it hook sraight up or do I need any extra mounting stuff?), and where can I find more SBF EFI stuff (even though Ill start with a carb...)? Thank you all!

O yeah, I am not planning on going over 500 whp... just to clarify for everyone... and (when I do go for a nice motor) I think Im going to go with a RBT 6-spd geared like a five speed plus a real big 6th for easy high speed highway crusin... So I dont think Im gonna have to do anything more to fix up the tranny...

Thanks guys!

[TMR2003]

Well a new ZF 5 spd from RBT is almost half the price of the 6 spd. You could get an RF and use a modified O1E box which is good.

[Bill Musarra]

Travis,
Don't know where in Ga. you are, but there are about 5 or 6 GT40's in the Atlanta area. Chip: lives off Scott Blvd.(Decatur) having someone build a Tornado that should be ready this summer. Joseph: lives in Lawrenceville, 10 miles from me, has a CAV that he drives around locally. Barry Simmons: lives in Athens and owns an original GT40. Me: lives in Snellville, building a DRB at my house. A fellow in Roswell building a Tornado. And one other whose name escapes me at the moment. You are welcome to come over any time you like to see the progress, and I am sure Joseph would give you a ride in his.
Along the line of motors etc. I currently have a 97 302 listed on ebay (parting out). I got it at a Parts One auction several years ago, and just recently found out two noteworthy things. 1. It is a high performance model. Staggered intakes on the intake manifold, EDIS unit, roller cam and slotted pistons. 2. It was removed from a brand new car (the rocker arms had absolutely no wear on them). Good news/bad news. Bad-- it came out of a flood car. Good-- they removed all the water and oil from the oil pan. Most of the rust was confined to the cylinder walls. None on the cam or lifters, slight amount in the lifter valley. All it needs is to be bored out and it would be ready to go.I had the machine shop clean all the parts up and they look fine. If your interested contact me. I will be using a 351 that came with the car and modifying it. Drop me a line of give me a call. BTW there is a little known secret in Atlanta about speed shop parts. Barnett Performance. Will meet or beat Summit or Jegs. If you know someone in the automotive business, you can get an additional discount on bulk orders.Give me a call.
Bill

[TravisM]

Thanks again and again guys! ok now... what is an RF and modified O1E box? Would this handle just under 500 whp?

Also, Bill, thanks fo all the atl help... I live in Acworth (Kennesaw) and go to school at Harrison... I will definately have to come see your build and I will call you when I get a free day... Are you satisfied with the DRB kit... is it nice? I have to check into all these kits...

Thanks everyone!

[TMR2003]

Well the RF is a Roaring Forti