Motor coming apart, suggestions??? 342 Ford

Ron Earp · 01-30-05, 12:11 PM

Since I sold my GT40s kit and am getting a turnkey, I have some space in the garage. I'm going to pull the motor apart and redo it with a little bit of a shift.

I have a 342 with a forged crank, forged flat tops, 185 non emissions AFR heads, and of course the Webers.

What I am thinking about doing is pulling it apart, lighting and rebalancing everything, putting in a solid roller cam, and maybe switching to larger heads.

The goal is to shift this thing away from being a reasonably strong street build to a fairly outrageous street/track build. I'm looking for high RPM power and a motor that will rev to 7500 and make power to that point. With the 3.4" stroke that is still within piston speed parameters.

So, any suggestions on a solid cam choice, head choice, lifters, and rockers? I'm thinking some AFR 205s would be a good ticket on the head choice if I'm not worried about low/mid range, but I need to investigate that further.

R

Jim Downard · 01-30-05, 02:08 PM

Hey Ron,
I was thinking the same thing on my 289 build. I've been doing a bit of thinking over the last year and trying to absorb as much info as I could. I called AFR tech support last week and asked their opinion of heads. Now keep in mind that I'm keeping the 289 crank, short stroke should allow for safe rpm. They suggested that I stick with the AFR 165's. I was told by them that you should never have the need to go beyond the 185's on any motor that began life as a 302. The 205's I'm told are useful for large cubed 351 strokers of 392 or larger. They said the critical issue is intake port velocity. I too would like to see an occasional 7200-7500 rpm. For that I'm going to have to go with a solid roller cam, but they say the ramp speed on a roller is so fast that it causes valve float at around 6500. You would think that a solid lifter flat tappet would have less ramp speed, and therefor, less chance of causing float. Anyway, I'm looking at upgrading my rods, although nothing exotic, forged slugs, solid roller cam, (to be determined after discussing this with my engine builder), AFR 165 heads, (they have a competition 165 that's been slightly worked for better flow), Either an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake or a Torker, and a 600 cfm Edelbrock or Holley (still up in the air on that one), I'm thinking of fitting a turkey pan around the carb, might fill in the hole and make it look better than just a carb and air cleaner. Oh yea, I'm definitly going to put a windage tray in the bottom end. Might help with the higer rpm. If your going to be going after 7500 rpm +/-, wouldn't you rather have a shorter stroke motor. That 347 turning that much rpm would have me gritting my teeth every time I spun it up. Well, that's my .02 worth. I'm sure this thread will generate some idea's.
Jim

Colin Artus · 01-30-05, 02:40 PM

You can achieve quite high rpm on a stroker as long as the bottom end is beefed up and the engine has been well balanced. Since you've got a forged crank you should go for internal balance (although with short deck strokers it is sometimes difficult to get the front balanced without some weight in the damper).If you have a 2 bolt block you should add a main cap girdle.
The Crane .640 roller (368061) is a good cam that I have used on three different engines and it was best on a stroker. It's not severe on duration and doesn't require ridiculous spring pressures; so relatively kind to your valves.
Shaft mount rockers are best (if Jesel/T&D) but unless you envisage sustained high rpm usage (ie tracks) stud mount rollers are fine; the Crower steel ones are bulletproof.

Colin Artus

Ron Earp · 01-30-05, 04:28 PM

Colin I was thinking the same thing on the engine and bottom end. Strokers can rev and some people forget that. Jim, yours could rev to the moon as a 289 if you'll beef the bottom end up as well. Do your valve springs right and valve train so you won't see valve float and you could probably hit 8000 with the motor - but you'll need heads other than 165s I bet.

Colin I've got a cap girdle and it is only a Sportsman block. But, I'll use it until it gives way. I like those high dollar dart blocks and all but heck, I've got this one so use it and see what it does. Maybe it'll be fine, I know folks that have had no issues. Then I've known some that have blown up.

I think the shaft mounts would be the way to go. I see sustained high RPM since I wish to track it.

Jim Downard · 01-30-05, 05:28 PM

Ron,
Do you know of any camshaft profiles that will allow for high rpm ability (not necessarily max hp, but one that will allow the motor to rev), while at the same time, having SOME drivability at highway speed rpm (1800-2000). As long as the motor will breath, I'm sure I'll get the rpm, but mine will be a street car, and as such, will also be puttered around town at lower revs. I don't want to go down the street going 25 mph and have to turn 2800 rpm to keep the car from bucking.
Jim

Colin Artus · 01-30-05, 07:33 PM

Ron,
In my experience bottom end failures in high rpm engines lie mainly in two areas (leaving aside incorrect machiningetc) :1) bearing failure due to insufficient rigidity in the main caps allowing the crank to flex
2) rod bolt failure (at high rpm this ventilates the block!)

A girdle and a forged crank will cure the first problem, 'Lifing' your rod bolts will prevent the second.The rod bolts really suffer at elevated rpms and they do need changing as insurance (check with arp or whoever).

Colin

Brett James-McCall · 01-31-05, 07:07 AM

Ron,
You have PM on the admin mail

Brett

ingvar · 02-22-05, 05:42 PM

Hello
My experience is:
High rpm kills the ford smallblock engines with stock blocks. A simple modification of oiling system solve partly the problem though.
An external 1/2" oil line mounted with a T unit at the oil pressure senser mounting. Locate the oil tube on the left side of the engine, goes to rear of the engine block where main bearing oil line is(between flywheel and block). Second problem is the rods, they need to be replaced with steel units that are made for hig revs.Your heads and induction system needs no other attention than a service.
The most important, the valve train, NOTHING else than a roller camshaft combo will do the trick of streetable race engine combo. Reed cams (reedcams.com) has the perfect choice, the R300ULX 300 degree roller with ,667" lift with 1,6 roller rockers.Other cam manufacturer have of course usable products but personally I like the reed factory because of their high quality products. In the early 90 s I had a dragster with a 500 cui ford 385 svo racing engine, block, crank, heads an a intake for a single holley dominator carburetor. We used a REED all roller valve train in that motor. The camsaft was an earlier version of the R332ULX, 332 degree and ,817" lift. The engine cranked 887hp at 7800rpm and had a steady 800rpm idle with maximum 9500 rpm that is aboat the best you can get.This engine is now used in a street car. That is the reason I´m recommending reed and the R300UlX camshaft and related parts. Using roller camshaft makes the engine produce better low and mid range power without reducing top rpm power
regards
Ingvar

Keith Hardy · 02-22-05, 06:27 PM

I am not familiar with the Sportsman block but I would totally deburr the thing anyway and remove all casting flash if you're running those kind of revs. All other advice here is good especially rods and bolts. I lost 2 good 289 blocks in my GT350 due to bolt stretch and that was revving only to 6,500. Apart from that, 4 bolt mains or girdles, align honing and boring and keeping oil in the right places (Accusump a must if running wet) it's a great little motor. I too would go for the shorter stroke version, but as long as it remains over square, I don't think it'll matter that much.

Mark Worthington · 02-22-05, 10:49 PM

Even with a sportsman block and a girdle you'll be pushing the limits of that block with the engine you've described, Ron. I agree with you that strokers with the right valvetrain and a forged bottom end can rev, but you'll be near the limit of that Sportsman block.

Tommy · 02-23-05, 08:41 AM

Ron,
my vote is for Trick Flow Track heat heads. Check out the numbers! They are O ringed so your gaskets will cost $65 each. good luck with your build
Tommy

Ron Earp · 02-23-05, 10:59 AM

That motor bottom end will be fine for a bit. Too much bench racing causes folks to go over board on the bits. One of my local car buddies had a turbo 5.0 stock block that was making 600+ rwhp for over 2.5 years until it blew up - that was a lot of 1/4 passes on the cheap!!!!! It'd be better to have something else but I'm using what I have as a starting point - this thing will be running in Jan I hope!!!!

Tommy, I was burned with a fellow I was building a motor with in the Trick Flow head crap in the 90s when they all had bad guides etc. and nothing would be done about it. I'm not using them again, that made a lot of people mad and causes them to go away from TF. I've got got CNC AFRs that I might use, or, I might go up to the next size.

Might take a look at that cam, I've not heard of those folks before.

Ron

Iron Sheik · 02-23-05, 12:49 PM

Mr. Creator & Administrator,

I have a solid roller in my new 347 with 48 IDFs. The motor has less than 10 miles on it, but so far it runs like a champ. Once I have 100 mile or so on it, I am planning to Dyno it. The Cam has 600+ lift but short duration. Let me know if you need the specs. The heads are Vic Jr. and it does have a billet main gridle.

Colin Artus · 02-23-05, 01:54 PM

You could try the Yates C3 head; for $2000 you could find a pair fully ported with all the jesel rocker gear. You would need to find the small port spec that is used for road racing. The tricky bit is finding the manifold for the 8.2 deck (B-302). I am looking for one myself!

Colin Artus

RRD · 02-24-05, 05:58 AM

just try jay at cushmancomp.hotmail.com he may just have one
good luck and good choice.

Bill Musarra · 02-24-05, 09:20 AM

For what it is worth, with the kind of abuse you plan for this engine, you need to put a lot of time into keeping all this together. To get the revs you want, the advice you have gotten so far is what you will have to do. You might consider going to H beam rods as well. Remember also that to get to the revs you mentioned, you will not only have to have a solid roller, but you will probably have to go with some very stiff springs in the valve train. Maybe even a double spring setup. the harmonics is usually what brings about float. That increased pressure in itself will take its toll on the valve train, requiring a lot of time in valve clearances, gap checks, not to mention the changing of the springs every so often. As you said, its to be a track engine, so I guess you don't mind all the extra work that will have to come with rechecking and replacing!!!
Bill

Ron Earp · 02-24-05, 05:00 PM

It'll take some work, but, I think it will be worth it. I've got excellent bits on the rods and rotating assembly already, the block is okay, I just need to go over to a solid roller and definitely better springs and rocker setup. It should be fun! I am planning on carting this thing to the engine shop this week for a re-balance and a few other things I cannot do at home. Lynn, by the way - check Billy at T-Hoff - excellent Ford guy, I really like him, knows his stuff, and is not expensive. His dad is an old time Ford guy with 2 SOHC engines for sale and a long-time FE guru. Billy does SBs and Windsors, and some really good ones from what I've seen!

R

Jim Downard · 03-03-05, 12:05 PM

Hey Ron,
I called Tech at Reedcams yesterday inquiring about a cam for my 289. Told him I was looking at 10:1 comp, stock stroke and either webbers or single 4 bbl. Mentioned I'd like to see around 7500 rpm. He said even with the high rpm, the AFR 165's will be plenty of head for a 289. Would correspond with what AFR told me. They mentioned (AFR) that there would most likely be no need to go over 185's on any motor under 350 cubes. There feeling the velocity is most important. Anyway, the folks at Reedcams where very helpful, and if you haven't already picked a cam, they might be worth a call. By the way, their cams are almost all custom grinds, and I was told I'd be looking a $165 +/- for the cam. It's also funny, he actually told me that for my application, he'd probably reccomend a solid flat tappet instead of a solid roller (interesting). Maybe it has something to do with high revs and cam ramp speeds.
Anyway, good luck on the build.