Track Boss manifold for 302 w/351-C 2-V heads

[Doug Sainlar]

Good day, Dan. I have 2 projects going, although the GT40 is priority #1.

For the GT40, I'm committed to a 302 Windsor block and hopefully the Cleveland style heads. This is my first build and so I want a project that doesn't take an act of congress to maintain, so it will not be a mondo build at this time. I do want a motor that can grow as I grow in skills, so the plan is to start with an iron block with a standard stroke, aluminum heads, mild to moderate cam, and probably a Holley style carb at first. Plans for growth in the future include changing to an allow block with a small forged steel stroker crank (331 CID range), more aggressive roller style cam, and probably the MasFlo EFI system I referenced earlier in this thread. High RPM capability is the eventual goal, but I'll start out with a lower RPM motor--at first I think I need to have a more tractable motor until I find myself capable of testing the limits of the car. Eventually the car may see some limited track use, but for the most part it will be driven on the street. I will be living in a sparsely populated area, so occasional high speed blasts are a real possibility.

The Cleveland is a work of heart. This engine has been in my family since we bought a new Ford full size car in 1972. I am aware of the oil system limitations and do not want to build the Cleveland to the point that restrictors, etc are necessary, so I'll probably stay with a milder cam with hydraulic rollers, although the newly developed roller cams do interest me. I'm perfectly happy with a much lower RPM limit on the Cleveland (6K sounds good to me, Dave!). I really like the looks of that EFI system Dave has in his pictures, and target car for the 351 Cleveland is a 289 FIA Cobra replica. On the 351 C I will probably spring for the chiheads from down under, unless we come up with something equivalent in the USA. Obviously, the Cleveland will be much less "twitchy". Street use is the intended purpose of the FIA.

Any further suggestions? Thanks for whatever input you might have.

YD,E./PNB

[Dano]

Well, given the mission you describe for the 302, and your desire to run the Boss/Cleveland style heads....here is what I suggest.

Get a set of the Aussie 2V heads. They are on Ebay pretty cheap. These heads outflow almost all other stock iron heads. They will not outflow modern aluminum heads. Since you say it should be easy to maintain, this is a good start. These heads need very little work. Just machine for screw in studs, and standard high quality valve work. They don't need expensive porting or polishing.

Any Boss 302 intake will fit. Yes, the standard Boss 302 intake ports are bigger, but it won't really affect anything. I run port restrictors in my heads anyway. They are cheap and work well for me. Boss intakes have become very expensive. but there are plenty of modified intakes out there that are cheaper, and you can still get the track Boss or Street boss brand new for around $400. the street boss is basically a stock dual plane with smaller ports for the 2V heads.

Of course the aluminum Cleveland style heads are very nice. Use them if you want to spend the money.

I have no experience with roller cams, but plenty of others do. I'm sure there are some good ones out there. the engine will come alive at higher RPM. You should think about a solid flat cam.... When used with a stud girdle, the lash hardly moves and doesn't require a ton of work. Hydraulic roller is easier....but if you eventually want to go a little crazy, nothing beats a solid cam. Might as well jump right in.

I would go with a custom piston and get the compression at least up to 10.5. The small displacement really likes more compression. Since this will be a street car, 10.5 is about the limit.

Last, I highly recommend the R-302 block. You get a superior oiling system, and the ability to increase the bore size to 4.100 with no real block issues. Lets you take advantage of the short stroke 302, but make easy power with cubic inches. Yes, the R-302 is a little heavier, but you get what you pay for. Plenty of folks have killed standard 302 blocks with 400 HP.

When you build the Cleveland........do not bore it. The walls will crack. Ford never made an oversize piston for a Cleveand. There is a reason why. Even .030 is too much for anything other than a strictly street car. Trust me.... Others will disagree, but I have a pile of 351C blocks, .030 over with cracked cylinders as a result of listening to the experts. I even cracked one with a mild 6000RPM limit hyd cam, and stock intake. If it gets hot (and it will if you drive it hard) the walls will crack.

Lots of opinions out there. But Clevelnand style heads on a GT-40 would be very cool. someday.... I will try it myself.

Dan

[Keith Hardy]

I ran a genuine Boss 302 in a imported Trans Am car in ASCAR in the early '80's. Awesome motor. I would definitely run one again if I had the chance. It would absolutely devour small block Chevy's (355 cubes) every which way.

Boss 302 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gif[/img]

[Doug Sainlar]

[ QUOTE ]
"These heads outflow almost all other stock iron heads. They will not outflow modern aluminum heads."

Dan, when you wrote this did you mean that the Aussie heads will not outflow any of the Windsor style aluminum heads (such as AFR 185's), or did you mean that the Aussie heads will also not outflow the aluminum Cleveland heads available in the aftermarket? If the aftermarket small port Cleveland heads will not outflow the aftermarket Windsor heads, them there might not be any purpose to using the Cleveland heads on the 302, particularly considering the difficulty obtaining the correct intake manifold. It sounds like you have a firm grasp on the purpose of my build and the options out there, and I suspect that I am not communicating exactly what I mean. If you mean that the Aussie heads will outflow all other iron heads (regardless of style), but not any of the aluminum aftermarket heads, then that is what I think you meant--am I right?

Bottom line--if the aluminum Edelbrock Performer RPM heads (which are represented to match up well with the 2-V intake manifold port size) will outflow the aftermarket Windsor style heads, then I will spring for the Cleveland aluminum heads and be done with it--no need to source the Aussie iron heads. The Edelbrock heads come with a 60cc combustion chanber, so high compression should not be a problem (I love that "snarl" that a high compression SBF creates!).

Also, do you think the stock 302 Windsor block would be adequate for 300-400 horsepower if I were to fit it with aftermarket 4 bolt main caps (available for #2, #3 and #4 mains only) and have the block line bored? I would not expect that block to rev as high as an alloy block with a forged crank, of course. My purpose here is to get a good start with an iron block without needing to invest in a better iron block than I have already, b/c eventually a Dart 4 bolt main alloy block will (!) be purchased and fitted with a small stroker forged steel crank, probably ending up with somewhere around 331 CID. I want to keep the stroke short so I can maintain the high RPM capability.

The issue of cracked cyllinders with the Clevelands is something I'm familiar with--it was a thin wall casting and not meant to be overbored much. I am hoping that my block, which is fairly high milage, will get by with +.010 or +.020, but I need to do something to take care of the taper in the cyllinders, not to mention making sure they are round. If I have to overbore it +.030, then when I build for the 289 FIA I might just scrap it and use the Windsor 351 block to get the decent oiling system, and I could still use the Cleveland heads and the Track Boss manifold (if I can find one).

Thanks again for the help!

YD,E./PNB

[Jac Mac]

Doug.
Two bits of further info; ACL Aust have a line of pistons( High Quality Cast ) that are compatable with the 6.025" rod (Aust302 Cleveland)to use in the 351c block available in 4.020/4.030/4.040 bore and 1.425 comp height (1/16-1/16-1/8,rings).

If you buy a Dart alloy block check out the 4.125" bore version.

Cheers Jack.

[DaveWharran]

Doug,
What I'd really like is one of these... an aluminum Cleveland block. Scroll to the bottom of the page.

That website also lists the Redline intake manifolds. I however got mine from Injection Perfection. Nice folks to deal with.
It is made for 2V heads and in my case, IDA style carb mounts.
The injection is TWM throttle bodies and a Haltech E6K engine management system.
At first, the throttle linkage was pulled from the left side of the engine. But heat from the exhaust system was melting the jacket of the throttle cable. So I fabricated a pull from the front of the engine between the throttle bodies. That has worked out much better, although more complex.

I guess volumes could be written about the ongoing debate of Cleveland oiling systems, thin blocks, etc.
I don't race mine although it does see 6200 rpm at times, the setting of the rev limiter.
It is bored .020" over with KB pistons. It does have an 8AN line from the main oil gallery at the oil filter to the tap priviously occupied by the oil pressure sender. Oil does flow in this line. No cam gallery restrictors. No oil pressure problems. No problems with the hydraulic roller. The heads were machined for rocker studs.
No problems what so ever. Racing it at rpm for extended periods would be entirely different.


For varied opinions on the oiling system and anything else related to the Cleveland engine, go to The 335 Cleveland Engine forum

Here's a couple of more intake/EFI pictures and one while the engine was going together.









Even the 2V ports are nicely sized!
No, the intake wasn't polished when I got it!

Dave

[Doug Sainlar]

Dave--there go the problems Clevelands have with oil supply to the mains--priority oiling just like the Windsor blocks. What an awesome block! Thank goodness for the Aussies, who were lucky to have the Cleveland for more than our 3 short years. BTW--I'd really like one, too! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

That EFI system is enough to make a Cleveland fanatic drool, or more likely [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/censored.gif[/img]. You have one fine build there--congratulations for setting the bar high IMHO [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gif[/img]. I'll definitely keep the website handy for when I start on my 335 build.

I'll sign up for the 335 Cleveland forum, too. Thanks so much for the link--I was aware that there were some 4 X 4 forums dedicated to the 351M (I have one of those, too) and the 400M, but this one has escaped me so far. There will undoubtedly be lots of great Cleveland specific info there, I'm sure. Only a Cleveland fan will understand your comment about idling through a 35 mph zone if 5th--the Cleveland is sooooo smooth and a has great low end torque--not to mention a "feel" that a Windsor can't match.

And, "...ain't they purty???"

YD,E/PNB

[Dano]

Doug,

Specifically, no. The AFR heads are just a little bit better than 4V heads. The Aussie heads are not as good as 4V. But, I have no data from the same flow bench operated by the same guy. so, the numbers are most likely a little bit off. The AFR's flow better on the exhaust, which has always been the only real drawback on the Cleveland style heads.
here are some numbers from AFR
http://www.airflowresearch.com/

and here are some numbers of the edelbrock heads
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techa...fp_0509_heads/

and last, the good old Ford Cast iron heads of 36 years ago..
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/f.../cleveland.htm

Short version:
Bone stock 351C 4V heads = 267/187 @.600
Ported 351C 4V heads = 335/245 @ .600
AFR 185 = 277/191 @ .600
Edelbrock = 265/185 @ .600

my main point is these heads flowed really well 35+ years ago, and there is a reason they are not allowed on many oval tracks today. Many folks who read a lot of magazines will complain about Cleveland heads. But not many who know the heads speak ill of them.

The Edelbrocks appear to be very similar to stock heads, but no doubt have some improvements. Those guys know what they are doing. YOu can't go wrong. The AFR's will definitely work, and probably be easier to deal with. But they won't have the unique "cool factor" you are looking for.

On the block.... you have to be careful. A stock 302 block will split if you push it hard. Boss blocks are better, but cost nearly what a Dart or R-302 cost. Modern 302 blocks are not as good as the old 289 and early 302 blocks. You can strengthen the bottom of the stock block with block filler, and epoxy and it will survive 450 HP. But, my firm opinion is the R-302 block is worth the money. If you break the stock block, you will end up spending far more in the long run. If you look at the total cost of the engine and then add in the cost of the R-302 block even over a free stock 302 block, the extra cost is not really that much. The R-302 superior oiling system is worth at least 1000 dollars of piece of mind. But, if the car is truly going to be a street car, you can live without the R-302.

Another piece of the puzzle.... Cleveland style heads tend to pool oil in the heads. Which in turn may explain some of my spectacular engine failures and my strong opinion of the R-302 and its oiling system. I think it is a must have for a Cleveland headed motor turning high rpm.

Again, just my thoughts. It is your hard earned money. But I must say I look forward to seeing some Boss style heads on a GT-40...

Dan

[Doug Sainlar]

Dan--no wonder you have a "need for speed". [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] My dad was a fighter pilot in WWII and a jet test pilot right after WWII. He tested the first high altitude pressure suit while stationed in England. Do a Google search for Jerome J. Sainlar--his confirmed kill is noted, as well as his response to being shot down over Europe by friendly fire.

OK--now back to the topic. I'm amazed at the flow of the AFR 185's, but giving up only 6 cfm on the exhaust side for that cool factor you mentioned is a small sacrifice, IMHO. In an early reply Ron suggested I just go with all Windsor products for the simple reason of not having to chase parts half way round the world. I bet somewhere on Dave's Cleveland forum there's somebody who wants to sell a Track Boss manifold. I think I'll just go slow on this build, and will probably take your advice and source a better block before starting the build at all. End goal--small port Boss 302.

I surfed into your web site--that's one awesome 'Stang!

I really appreciate you sharing all your expertise. Sometime when I head for the Big Bend country I'll stop in Del Rio and we'll [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img] to our shared love of Clevor's.

YD,E/PNB

[Dano]

Happy to help. I'll look up your father today. Those suits were probably worn at Laughlin AFB, where I'm stationed. It was one of the first U-2 bases.

I know a small port Boss 302 will run very good. My buddies motor screams, and it is very simple. The track boss intakes can still be had new. He makes up a few from time to time. I know a guy who just bought a brand new track boss 351W. $400 ish. The guy who runs the intake stuff is in the Air Force, and does the intakes on the side. If he is deployed to Iraq, it just has to wait until he returns.

I know several pros on the Cleveland heads. the Aussie 2V's can be ported to out flow AFR 185's easy. But another thought....Just use 351C 4V heads with port stuffers. Cheaper, and easier. I use the MPG port plates, and they help seal the water passage on the intake as well. But, you won't have the giant flow numbers unless you port them. A guy I race with has Roush modified 351C 4V heads. They flow about 325 on the intake and 280 on the exhaust. I have the flow numbers here somewhere. These heads have a raised exhaust port configuration, but a filled intake.

Very cool stuff. Where is Rosenberg? I'm running the Boss at TWS in college station in mid May. And maybe Ft Worth MSR the week after. You are invited to hear the thunder.

Dan
210 296-5401
(off work today and the next day 13/14 Apr)

[Doug Sainlar]

"The track boss intakes can still be had new. He makes up a few from time to time. I know a guy who just bought a brand new track boss 351W. $400 ish. The guy who runs the intake stuff is in the Air Force, and does the intakes on the side. If he is deployed to Iraq, it just has to wait until he returns."
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Next time you talk to your buddy tell him I am in the market for one--I'd rather buy new than used, that way I am sure I will have flat sealing surfaces, no stripped bolt/stud holes, etc. It will be for the standard 302 Windsor block with the 2-V Cleveland heads (the second part should go without saying, right?). I can pay via PayPal or credit card.

I'll give you a call tomorrow--I have an idea I know is not so unique that it hasn't been thought of before, so I need to find out why I haven't heard of anyone trying it before [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. Not too early, though.

Rosenberg is 30 miles southwest of Houston on US59. College station is not far away--about a 2 hour drive. Mid May is a good time [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. I'd enjoy watching the action and sort of hearing the thunder again (most of my high frequency hearing is gone, thanks to loud motors and firearms when I was young and dumb [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beat.gif[/img]).

Good luck to your buddy if he is in "...the $h!+"--we'll [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img] to his safe return when he gets home!

YD,E./PNB