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Old 24th January 2018, 09:17 PM   #1
Norcoastal
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Coyote or SBF

Iím trying to decide what engine to put in my new bare chassis. Iím sure this has come up before and I am aware of the obvious differences, but Iím interested in your opinions.

The coyote has 435HP from the factory. It has efi so itís very manageable and easy to live with. It also has a computer that makes it easy to work on. Basically it makes a classic car modern. And since Iím using modern brakes and chassis, why not go modern power plant?

The SBF either 302 or 351 has the old school look and would be more true to the car. It has a raw sound and is what you expect when you open the engine compartment.

There is also a big price difference in the two.

Iíve seen some amazing builds with coyotes and just as amazing SBFís.

I also wonder what would have better resale? Do buyers want old school or modern technology?
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Old 24th January 2018, 11:51 PM   #2
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Re: Coyote or SBF

I would chose the 302 over the 351 due to size and the 302 would just look more right.
Now to chose between the deuce and the Coyote, think about the expense delta between the two. Not only is the Coyote larger in literally every dimension, but far more complex.
The exhaust system fabrication will be exceedingly expensive as well.
All the “nice” things you mentioned about the Coyote are things that will dramatically increase the cost of your build.
Resale value -
With the Coyote, I think you will eliminate most buyers that want a more authentic build and a few more buyers with the higher price you’ll place on the car to make up for all the expense of the Coyote etc...

Bottom line

Stick with the Deuce and enjoy.....
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Old 25th January 2018, 07:50 AM   #3
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Re: Coyote or SBF

personally, i would go with the coyote. if i am not mistaken it has 0 imbalance flywheel which would make it easy to adapt to any transaxle. the internal balanced engines run a lot smoother. The trend is split 50/50 as to authentic or restomod. With the Coyote you get double to triple the gas mileage. long road trips driving, the coyote. trips to shows trailering 289 or 351. I have a 66 Cobra roadster with a 427W (351 bored and stroked) that makes 660 HP (not a lot these days) but it drinks gas with that double pumper. I have a 351C in a Shelby Europa and it gets 12 mpg. The Coyote should get at least 20 with a street tune. I know gas is only $2.10 a gallon and at our age it is smiles per gallon, but I would rather spend my money on Guinness than at the petrol pump. my2c
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Old 25th January 2018, 10:09 AM   #4
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcoastal View Post
I also wonder what would have better resale? Do buyers want old school or modern technology?

Logic suggests most buyers would prefer "old school" since the car itself is first and foremost a replica of an "old school" GT40. That hypothesis is pretty much borne out by the overwhelming number of SBF-powered '40s built/being built vs. those with Coyotes...and I doubt the fact that the Coyote is a relatively new engine has much do with that.

That said, there undoubtedly is a market for Coyote-powered '40s...but, as suggested above, it's arguably nowhere near as large.

"Different strokes..."
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Old 25th January 2018, 01:04 PM   #5
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Another option is to go old school 302 or 351 and add ITB injection along with COP. This will give you old school looks with modern fuel and spark control. Of course the cost will go up but I chose this route because I like the look of the old school engines with the modern tech added for reliability and performance improvements that come with it. BTW when my build is complete you will not be able to see the electronics and fuel system so the engine compartment will basically be all motor without the supporting controllers, coils and pumps visible.

Note: Controllers will be hidden when double bulkhead is added.
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Old 25th January 2018, 01:58 PM   #6
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Originally Posted by gt40rick View Post
Another option is to go old school 302 or 351 and add ITB injection along with COP. This will give you old school looks with modern fuel and spark control. Of course the cost will go up but I chose this route because I like the look of the old school engines with the modern tech added for reliability and performance improvements that come with it. BTW when my build is complete you will not be able to see the electronics and fuel system so the engine compartment will basically be all motor without the supporting controllers, coils and pumps visible.

Note: Controllers will be hidden when double bulkhead is added.

Wow, your car looks awesome! Where did you get the support that connects the shocks? It looks terrific.

My chassis is designed for a Coyote engine. If I want to change to a 302, I'd need to cut the existing mounts and weld in new ones, that's not a problem but it would be easier to use a Coyote.

I've seen some great looking Coyote's on this site. If done right with stacks opposed to the stock throttle body it looks as good as the weber stacks on an original sbf. The prices are coming down also.

Mine is a budget build and I'm doing well so far. I have a lead on a "bundle of snakes" that won't kill my budget. That alone is swaying me towards the Coyote.

I like old school, but this car will have modern suspension and modern brakes. I don't want to put good money in the car if there will be no resale when the time comes to sell it. That's why I'm asking about resale.
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Old 25th January 2018, 08:53 PM   #7
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Originally Posted by gt40rick View Post
Another option is to go old school 302 or 351 and add ITB injection along with COP. This will give you old school looks with modern fuel and spark control. Of course the cost will go up but I chose this route because I like the look of the old school engines with the modern tech added for reliability and performance improvements that come with it. BTW when my build is complete you will not be able to see the electronics and fuel system so the engine compartment will basically be all motor without the supporting controllers, coils and pumps visible.

Note: Controllers will be hidden when double bulkhead is added.
I love that brace between the shock tops. Did you Make it?

My chassis is designed for a coyote. I could cut the mount brackets and weld new ones on so I can use either engine.

Iíve seen some 40ís with coyotes and if you add efi stacks, it looks great. Not as good as a 302 with Weberís, but it looks pretty good.

I love the cars styling and design and I would never consider modifying the body or the look. But the brakes are modern, the suspension is modern and the trans axle will be Porsche. Making the engine correct when all these other things are modern? Not sure it matters.

But there are just as many arguments for 302ís.

I am (slightly) concerned about resale, but if itís reliable and driver friendly because itís modern, I donít see how thatís a bad thing when selling.

I also want to have a good driver experience. But I love the sound of a thumping cam and I wouldnít have that with a balanced coyote engine.

Ugh.
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Old 25th January 2018, 11:59 PM   #8
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Originally Posted by gt40rick View Post
Another option is to go old school 302 or 351 and add ITB injection along with COP..... you will not be able to see the electronics and fuel system so the engine compartment will basically be all motor without the supporting controllers, coils and pumps visible.
Hey Rick, totally agree. You can also hide the COPs in the sponsons and feed the plug wires up to the plugs.

Your exhaust is coming along nicely but can't tell if you're running double slip joints at the collectors. If you don't, you'll get all kinds of O2 leakage downstream to your sensor and that FAST ECU will go pig rich on you (closed loop).

Mine are that way and aside from some reversion at low rpm (tuneable), there is no leakage in that area. I'm running the same intake and ECU setup...
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Old 28th January 2018, 03:21 PM   #9
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Rick, I love the support between the shocks. Did you make that?

I have a line on a set “bundle of snakes” headers for a coyote and my chassis is set up for a coyote but I can cut out the mounts and weld in new ones if I decide to go SBF.

It’s a real debate in my head. I really like the sound and look of an old school motor, but the horsepower and dependability of the coyote is hard to argue with.

Since the suspension, brakes and transaxle are modern I am not so concerned about being “replica” correct. I see a lot of examples of Factory Five Cars with coyote engines so to me it’s acceptable as a power plant. It is more expensive to go coyote, but I’ve seen the prices coming down there as well.

I guess I’ll just keep on thinking about it and when the chassis is ready for power, I’ll decide then.

Thanks for the opinions.

Last edited by Norcoastal; 28th January 2018 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 28th January 2018, 09:34 PM   #10
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Steve, by no means does a SBF mean you have to give up on horsepower or, for that matter, dependability. My SBF will hit 500hp on 91 octane at 7000rpm with a paltry 306ci. It's not a stretch to easily get 425-450 from a 347ci stroker with good reliability.
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Old 29th January 2018, 08:20 PM   #11
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Steve, by no means does a SBF mean you have to give up on horsepower or, for that matter, dependability. My SBF will hit 500hp on 91 octane at 7000rpm with a paltry 306ci. It's not a stretch to easily get 425-450 from a 347ci stroker with good reliability.
Thatís why I keep going back and forth. I love the old school look, sound and rawness of a SBF, but you canít beat the out of the box HP and reliability of a coyote.

I guess Iíll just keep going with my build and make a decision when the time comes.

Appreciate all the opinions

Steve
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Old 29th January 2018, 10:44 PM   #12
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Originally Posted by jammin man View Post
Steve, by no means does a SBF mean you have to give up on horsepower or, for that matter, dependability. My SBF will hit 500hp on 91 octane at 7000rpm with a paltry 306ci. It's not a stretch to easily get 425-450 from a 347ci stroker with good reliability.
That’s close to what I want if I build up my 5.0 roller engine. It takes a bit of machine work but with the canted valve heads you get great low end grunt and legendary revability in a relatively small package. That’s called a “Clevor”...the Boss 302 Trans-Am racers of the 70’s ran factory Clevors.

The appearance of originality would not be a factor for me, but I’d suspect that most who build do take it into account. It might be a factor if you’d ever like to sell a MKI. Mike’s is a truly splendid example, quite well done and sounds well sorted...my inspiration would be P1040, I think.

Is there an SWMBO involved? If so, and particularly is she might drive it alone, go with the Coyote and stand-alone EFI control for power and reliability. That Coyote loves to rev!

Cheers!

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Last edited by YerDugliness; 29th January 2018 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 30th January 2018, 07:43 AM   #13
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Smile Re: Coyote or SBF

The SBF absolutely cannot match the Coyote for versatility. You can easily make the same PEAK power #s with the SBF but with the variable cam timing the Coyote can literally have the best of both worlds. You can have an engine that revs to 8k AND still has loads of low end torque. The SBF can have either high RPM and power or low end torque.
That said...I would choose the SBF ( 8.2" deck Dart block with 4.125" bore and 3.25" stroke with 10.2:1 compression , AFR heads and a decent hydraulic roller camshaft. You can easily make 400+WHP and it will look the part.
AS incredible as the Coyote is, there is no beating the SBF for a GT40. Unless you are building a "Restomod" GT40??? Then by all means go with the Coyote !

Just speaking from my experience.

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Old 30th January 2018, 03:04 PM   #14
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Steve - The support beam for the transaxle is as supplied by RCR, they make different styles depending on the transaxle that you use, as with all of their cnc'd parts they are a work of art and very well designed.

Tom - My exhaust was supplied by RCR but I had to modify the 2 rear tubes to have sufficient clearance from the rear deck. I have to weld all of the joints together so when I do that I can add the slip joints. My intake has 58mm throttle bodies instead of the 52mm bodies usually mounted to the intake. My engine is built to live at 7,500 so I needed larger TB's to provide air at high RPM's, HP starts dropping off from 625hp @ 7,500 to 575hp @ 8,000 rpm.
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Old 30th January 2018, 03:30 PM   #15
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Just my $.02. You've got a car from the 1960's. You obviously love that era of racing. I know I do. You got the car for a reason. To bring back that excitement for not only you, but for others to enjoy when you take it out and run and show it.

There is going to be an expectation when that rear clamshell is opened up. You can put EFI that looks like Webers and will give you the quick startup and relative smoothness of that Coyote.

To me, putting a Coyote in one of these cars just makes it look more like a kit car. But an 8 stack of Webers commands respect from all and shows your dedication to the hobby and the sport.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Old 30th January 2018, 04:11 PM   #16
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Re: Coyote or SBF

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Just my $.02.

There is going to be an expectation when that rear clamshell is opened up. You can put EFI that looks like Webers and will give you the quick startup and relative smoothness of that Coyote.
I have come to appreciate the EFI systems that look like Webers...IIRC Webers are a constant source of frustration and it seems that only those who really enjoy working on Webers enjoy running them. The EFI "Look-alike" offerings make great sense!

OTOH...even though you'll have "...the look" with the look-alike, you'll still get left at the starting line by the Coyote. It's just a great engine!

Cheers!

Doug
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Old 30th January 2018, 04:52 PM   #17
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Re: Coyote or SBF

This is the one for me .on the dyno Friday so fingers crossed


Regards mark
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Old 30th January 2018, 04:56 PM   #18
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Re: Coyote or SBF

There's that CLASSIC GT40 look!

What else can you tell us about your engine?

Parts?

Power level you're hoping for?

That kind of stuff!

Cheers, Mark!

Doug
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Old 30th January 2018, 05:31 PM   #19
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Re: Coyote or SBF

1973 block ,eagle steel crank internally balanced,eagle rods forged pistons stroked to 347 ,Edelbrock rpm heads ,scorpion roller rockers,Chet Herbert cam 500 lift and lifters 10.6 to 1 Comp ratio
Target hp is 400 as the bottom end is stock ,my guess is it will make a little more,perhaps the engine men on the forum would care to comment

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Old 30th January 2018, 07:39 PM   #20
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Re: Coyote or SBF

Totally agree....
The Coyote is a great engine, just not so great for swaps due to size and the heavy transaxle combo you'll need to hang out the back. I think it's harder to sell a GT-40 with a modern engine, and IMO its got "kit car" written all over it.

I enjoy the SBF vintage car/engine combo. It's the pure driving experience (yeah, no AC either)....like you've gone back in time. Also, there is no embarrassment or having to make excuses when I open up the rear bonnet. My SBF setup has been quite reliable so far, and it starts right up, can sit in traffic, and handles 6000-12000 foot elevation changes just fine. I do try and hide most of the modern technology the best I can, most casual observers can't tell the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 70gsconvt View Post
Just my $.02. You've got a car from the 1960's. You obviously love that era of racing. I know I do. You got the car for a reason. To bring back that excitement for not only you, but for others to enjoy when you take it out and run and show it.

There is going to be an expectation when that rear clamshell is opened up. You can put EFI that looks like Webers and will give you the quick startup and relative smoothness of that Coyote.

To me, putting a Coyote in one of these cars just makes it look more like a kit car. But an 8 stack of Webers commands respect from all and shows your dedication to the hobby and the sport.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
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