Anyone seen these seats???

[Mark Ferrari]

Sorry Ron if this is in the wrong section - move if necessary.

I had my seats made in Melbourne Australia last year by McBride Auto Upholstery and they have disappeared! I took them back for modifications to the padding and left them there for ~5mths while the car was being built. When I rang to finally pick them up they didn't know where they were. They said that Roaring Forties picked them up. Roaring Forties denied it. Maybe they have been delivered to the wrong person or possibly ended up over-seas. Nobody can find them and no-one wants to take responsibility for their disappearance.

They are made for a RF40 but could probably fit any GT40. They are black vinyl with grey GT40 stitched into the headrests

If you see these seats please let me know!!

[Lynn]

Mark,

I moved your thread here because it is the right technical forum for seats, but you might want to post something in All GT40 in the General Discussion area also.

I sure hope that who ever ended up with them has the integrity to come forward and that you find your seats!

Regards,
Lynn

[woodz428]

I had a similar problem with a local upholsterer, I think it's a by-product of having pieces sitting for long periods. Sometimes, as with ours, it is confusion. I had a customer with a '50 Merc that I was re-doing and he took his seat over to the upholsterer and had it stitched in early rod flavor(tuck and roll,B&W), he left it with them for a longer time than you. After the car made the rounds and came back to me, he brought this beautiful seat for me to re-install....unfortunately it wasn't for his car, it appeared from it's H&W that it was a pick-up seat of some kind. They had no idea where his seat went and swore that was the one he brought in. He wound up having to locate a usable seat to have redone...again. They did pay for the used seat, I believe, but only when it was made clear that the seat came right from the car to them so there was no confusion before they had it. Someone wound up with a seat too wide and too short for their vehicle and had never tried to install it or were just baffled, trying to figure out what happened to the missing seat lifts :-).

[Gary Kadrmas]

Mark,

Sorry to hear about your situation.

Your seats are very identifiable, so when they surface, be in a position to defend your ground.

Think of what you did on the date you dropped them off at the upholsterer and anyone that you interacted with on that date to support your position, and document your results.

Everyone here at gt40s.com will be supportive of your setback, and will keep the radar on to help any way we can.

You may wish to poste the name of the upolsterer/city location, and an approximate date this happened.

Good luck, I have my fingers crossed for you!

[Jim c]

I am convinced upholsterers learn about stuffing people around as part of the apprenticeship.
And if they fail this part of the corse the have to go back and repeat it at night till they get it right.

Jim

[Gregg]

Mark, not to be the bearer of bad news, but I think you can kiss those seats goodbye forever. For the sake of argument, assume that they went to another person. That person probably has no idea of the seats origin and then paid money for them. Do you think he/she would be willing to return the seats without a replacement set or a refund? I doubt it. Chances are, if you did locate them, the upholsterer would deny that they were your seats but were another set that they stitched for that person. Good luck in your endeavors but you are fighting an uphill battle which you probably already know.

[Cliff Beer]

Mark, where chattel (legal term for personal property) has been stolen it cannot be purchased downstream with good title. In other words, once it has been stolen, any subsequent purchaser acquires stolen property which will be returned to the true owner (often under court order) if identified. Your seats are very identifiable and stand a fair chance of appearing on a GT40 replica. If they can be located at some point it matters not what the purchaser claims ("but I paid good money for them!") in the eyes of the law in the US and most European legal schemes - they're yours and a court would compel the holder to deliver them to you.

Good luck!

[Gregg]

Hello There, putting aside all the problems and expense of tracking the seats down, being able to identify them, overcoming the upholsterer's defense that the seat's are not Mark's and/or that they were abandoned in his shop and international law, what is your opinion of the following law in the US regarding a good faith purchaser? (Isn't the internet great. You can look up just about anything.)


§ 2-103. Definitions and Index of Definitions.

(1) In this Article unless the context otherwise requires

(a) "Buyer" means a person that buys or contracts to buy goods.

[(j) "Good faith" means honesty in fact and the observance of reasonable commercial standards of fair dealing.]

Legislative Note: The definition of "good faith" should not be adopted if the jurisdiction has enacted this definition as part of Article 1.

(k) "Goods" means all things that are movable at the time of identification to a contract for sale. The term includes future goods, specially manufactured goods, the unborn young of animals, growing crops, and other identified things attached to realty as described in Section 2-107. The term does not include information, the money in which the price is to be paid, investment securities under Article 8, the subject matter of foreign exchange transactions, or choses in action.

(l) "Receipt of goods" means taking physical possession of goods.

(o) "Seller" means a person that sells or contracts to sell goods.



PART 4. TITLE, CREDITORS AND GOOD FAITH PURCHASERS [Table of Contents]


§ 2-403. Power to Transfer; Good Faith Purchase of Goods; "Entrusting".

(1) A purchaser of goods acquires all title which his transferor had or had power to transfer except that a purchaser of a limited interest acquires rights only to the extent of the interest purchased. A person with voidable title has power to transfer a good title to a good faith purchaser for value. When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though

(a) the transferor was deceived as to the identity of the purchaser, or

(b) the delivery was in exchange for a check which is later dishonored, or

(c) it was agreed that the transaction was to be a "cash sale", or

(d) the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law.

(2) Any entrusting of possession of goods to a merchant that deals in goods of that kind gives him power to transfer all rights of the entruster to a buyer in ordinary course of business.

(3) "Entrusting" includes any delivery and any acquiescence in retention of possession regardless of any condition expressed between the parties to the delivery or acquiescence and regardless of whether the procurement of the entrusting or the possessor's disposition of the goods have been such as to be larcenous under the criminal law.

[Mark Ferrari]

The upholsterer has said that my seats are unique and he has not made another set like them, so this is one thing in my favour. I hope they turn up soon because the car is nearly ready to be registered.

[ChrisL]

Mark,
For what it's worth, you can borrow my seats for the purpose of registration if you want. I think you have the same floor so they should fit straight it.

[Gregg]

Mark, It is a good thing that they are "unique" but you still have all the other problems. I would not hold out hope of getting them back from a good samaritan. I am not clear on all the facts. Who originally hired McBride, you or Roaring Forties? If Roaring Forties you are SOL as they went out of business. If you contracted with them, did you authorize the seats pickup by Roaring Forties or anyone else? If yes, again, you are pretty much without recourse as RF is gone and now McBride will have a third party to deflect their responsibility. If not, tell McBride you want your seats as they have yet to deliver them. Look at your paperwork. Hope these suggestions help. You can pm with any questions. Good luck.

[Mark Ferrari]

Thanks for the suggestions, and the offer of the seats Chris. The upholsterer is lending me 2 seats to get the car registered.
The history is that I originally took the seats to the upholsterer late '06 to have the padding reduced. I (stupidly) left them there for a long time (they are 1 1/2 hrs away from me) but contacted them during this time (spoke to his work partner) to say that I would pick them up when I took my race seats to them for upholstering. I then contacted them last week to organise to pick them up and thats when the s... hit the fan. They said that the new Roaring Forties had picked them up. Roaring Forties said they hadn't and maybe they had been delivered to a couple of other places that the car has had work done at. The upholsterer reckons that I told him that I couldn't pick them up and that's why he gave them to Roaring Forties, however he is not completely sure who he gave them to. I've asked everyone concerned to check their factories but to no avail. In the meantime I'll get the car registered with the loaner seats then put the race seats in and hope the others turn up.

[Cliff Beer]

Originally Posted by Gregg

Hello There, putting aside all the problems and expense of tracking the seats down, being able to identify them, overcoming the upholsterer's defense that the seat's are not Mark's and/or that they were abandoned in his shop and international law, what is your opinion of the following law in the US regarding a good faith purchaser? (Isn't the internet great. You can look up just about anything.)


§ 2-103. Definitions and Index of Definitions.

(1) In this Article unless the context otherwise requires

(a) "Buyer" means a person that buys or contracts to buy goods.

[(j) "Good faith" means honesty in fact and the observance of reasonable commercial standards of fair dealing.]

Legislative Note: The definition of "good faith" should not be adopted if the jurisdiction has enacted this definition as part of Article 1.

(k) "Goods" means all things that are movable at the time of identification to a contract for sale. The term includes future goods, specially manufactured goods, the unborn young of animals, growing crops, and other identified things attached to realty as described in Section 2-107. The term does not include information, the money in which the price is to be paid, investment securities under Article 8, the subject matter of foreign exchange transactions, or choses in action.

(l) "Receipt of goods" means taking physical possession of goods.

(o) "Seller" means a person that sells or contracts to sell goods.



PART 4. TITLE, CREDITORS AND GOOD FAITH PURCHASERS [Table of Contents]


§ 2-403. Power to Transfer; Good Faith Purchase of Goods; "Entrusting".

(1) A purchaser of goods acquires all title which his transferor had or had power to transfer except that a purchaser of a limited interest acquires rights only to the extent of the interest purchased. A person with voidable title has power to transfer a good title to a good faith purchaser for value. When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though

(a) the transferor was deceived as to the identity of the purchaser, or

(b) the delivery was in exchange for a check which is later dishonored, or

(c) it was agreed that the transaction was to be a "cash sale", or

(d) the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law.

(2) Any entrusting of possession of goods to a merchant that deals in goods of that kind gives him power to transfer all rights of the entruster to a buyer in ordinary course of business.

(3) "Entrusting" includes any delivery and any acquiescence in retention of possession regardless of any condition expressed between the parties to the delivery or acquiescence and regardless of whether the procurement of the entrusting or the possessor's disposition of the goods have been such as to be larcenous under the criminal law.

Mr. Gregg,

You need to pay attention and read (from above): "a purchaser of goods acquires all title which his transferor had or had power to transfer." Note: A transferor of stolen goods has no title or right therein at all so the purchaser of such goods accordingly acquires no title or right, good faith or otherwise.

The section "a person with voidable title has power to transfer a good title to a good faith purchaser for value" is irrelevant to these set of facts - a transferor of stolen goods has no title at all (not voidable title or otherwise).

Incidentally, you quote the Uniform Commercial Code here - most, but not all states have adopted this language to govern sales and secured transactions.

You might be able to look it up on the internet, but that doesn't mean you're smart enough to understand it.

[Gregg]

Hello There,

"You might be able to look it up on the internet, but that doesn't mean you're smart enough to understand it."

Nice personal attack from someone who is afraid to reveal ones identity and location. Cliff, is this you?? I don't need to get into anything with you or anyone elses on the forum, but perhaps you should re-read the law about good faith purchaser and merchant, or perhaps my high school education isn't worth the tax dollars paid.

Lets see, upholsterer is a merchant entrusted with the seats and if someone purchased the seats from him, sounds like a good faith purchaser to me. The law states title passes even if it would be a crime under crimminal law. But then again, we don't know the facts about the transaction, and I obviously aren't as smart as you.

Have a nice day.

[Bill D]

Lets not start personal attacks. If you want to argue semantics, please take it offline

Thanks
Bill D
Moderator

[Cliff Beer]

Originally Posted by Gregg

Hello There,

"You might be able to look it up on the internet, but that doesn't mean you're smart enough to understand it."

Nice personal attack from someone who is afraid to reveal ones identity and location. Cliff, is this you?? I don't need to get into anything with you or anyone elses on the forum, but perhaps you should re-read the law about good faith purchaser and merchant, or perhaps my high school education isn't worth the tax dollars paid.

Lets see, upholsterer is a merchant entrusted with the seats and if someone purchased the seats from him, sounds like a good faith purchaser to me. The law states title passes even if it would be a crime under crimminal law. But then again, we don't know the facts about the transaction, and I obviously aren't as smart as you.

Have a nice day.

Mr. Gregg,

Again, you are mistaken here. Under the law of all states in the US, a subsequent holder (good faith or not) does not have title to the seats. With regard to Section 2-403 subsection 2, the entrusting clause does not cause good title to pass because the upholsterer does not deal in those goods - why? Because an upholsterer upholsters, he/she isn't retailing/selling seats for sale as a matter of course. The case law (if you can find that on the internet) and other relevant persuasive authority will show you that "deals in" is a precise legal term. And, on these facts, no good title will transfer to a subsequent good faith purchaser from this upholsterer.

No ill will intended Mr. Gregg, simply pointing out that a) you're mistaken on this point, and b) legal training isn't just a matter of simply downloading text off the web.

To the true owner of these seats I do hope that you have some good fortune and can reacquire them. Sometimes persistence and patience (and awareness of relevant law) can pay dividends. I know I'll keep my eyes out for you.

[Mark Ferrari]

Good news - Found my seats! Apparently they were mistakenly delivered to a customer who only recently unwrapped them to find they weren't his. Thanks to Paul from Roaring Forties and to the gt40 forum for your help.

[Bill D]

That is truly good news Mark!