Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
To be honest I don't give a shit one way or the other, I guess I just don't like lynch mobs.
Really Bemused by this story....
- Thread starter Keith1
- Start date
To be honest I don't give a shit one way or the other, I guess I just don't like lynch mobs.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Fair point.
I think in this case it is more of "justice being served via the means chosen by the parties to resolve their disputes" but I agree that is just my opinion.
I think in this case it is more of "justice being served via the means chosen by the parties to resolve their disputes" but I agree that is just my opinion.
+1000 :thumbsup:
In a nutshell.
If it were anything else you don't think we non Amuricans would pass up the chance of a gloat do you?
Hur hur....:drunk:
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Ok so back in 1966, 1967, 1968 , 1969 GT40's won at Le Mans
All cars that now participate have to meet Euro 4 levels of emissions and using current analysis machines it can be proved that the Ford V8 in their day did not meet these specifications so now have to have their "wins" taken away.
I don't think so
It's the same thing - it is at tested at the time to the testing available at the time. after that it is Pete's lynch mob.
Oh and Jeff if samples have been tested recently and their results are being questioned the samples would not be sealed and hence no body could prove that they had not been tampered with in the interim period.
All cars that now participate have to meet Euro 4 levels of emissions and using current analysis machines it can be proved that the Ford V8 in their day did not meet these specifications so now have to have their "wins" taken away.
I don't think so
It's the same thing - it is at tested at the time to the testing available at the time. after that it is Pete's lynch mob.
Oh and Jeff if samples have been tested recently and their results are being questioned the samples would not be sealed and hence no body could prove that they had not been tampered with in the interim period.
Well, as the thread starter I have to say that "I am really bemused by This Story" and still am...
Is there any information as to why LA's best mate and his team manager are effectively ruining his reputation? There must be a strong reason - someone mentioned possible inducements but it wasn't answered. There is definitely something behind this which we are not being told. Has he buggered someone's offspring? Did he shat in the boss's cornflakes?
Are they jealous? For someone who was lauded as a sporting legend and who has raised millions for cancer charities, these actions beggar belief. "He was caught cheating?", well erm, no, actually he wasn't.
Ian's point about judging past events with the benefit of modern era knowledge is absolutely spot on.
By that same token, perhaps Red Bull should be disqualified for life from F1?
Still mystified....
Is there any information as to why LA's best mate and his team manager are effectively ruining his reputation? There must be a strong reason - someone mentioned possible inducements but it wasn't answered. There is definitely something behind this which we are not being told. Has he buggered someone's offspring? Did he shat in the boss's cornflakes?
Are they jealous? For someone who was lauded as a sporting legend and who has raised millions for cancer charities, these actions beggar belief. "He was caught cheating?", well erm, no, actually he wasn't.
Ian's point about judging past events with the benefit of modern era knowledge is absolutely spot on.
By that same token, perhaps Red Bull should be disqualified for life from F1?
Still mystified....
I have been reading this thread from the start as I used to race juniors and senior 2s at a national level. I also have experience with steroids and other drugs used to "enhance" an athletes performance.
I think its pretty clear LA was using "something." However, considering that he was able to pass testing available at the time along with everyone else they should stop the persecution. (he was scrutinized and held to the standards at the time) It would be a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to publically take a lie-detecter test!!! ;o)
He is a champion, a great athlete, a great cyclist, and a pretty darn good example to many people. I don't feel that publically airing the dirty laundry of professionals and their organizations is anything more than entertaining to the media and people that are easily duped by heresay and sensationalism.
"Performance enhancing drugs" are rampant in professional and amateur sports. (always have been) Many individuals will do WHATEVER they feel is neccesary to gain an advantage or improve their performance. So what is the next step? Character assesment before during and after training to compete in any sport??? It sure would be a good thing for politicians........
I think its pretty clear LA was using "something." However, considering that he was able to pass testing available at the time along with everyone else they should stop the persecution. (he was scrutinized and held to the standards at the time) It would be a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to publically take a lie-detecter test!!! ;o)
He is a champion, a great athlete, a great cyclist, and a pretty darn good example to many people. I don't feel that publically airing the dirty laundry of professionals and their organizations is anything more than entertaining to the media and people that are easily duped by heresay and sensationalism.
"Performance enhancing drugs" are rampant in professional and amateur sports. (always have been) Many individuals will do WHATEVER they feel is neccesary to gain an advantage or improve their performance. So what is the next step? Character assesment before during and after training to compete in any sport??? It sure would be a good thing for politicians........
I am not defending LA as much as concerned about how the USADA (and other similar agencies) operate.
For example, the claim is that the most recent tests done on LA's 2+ year old samples are, what's the phrase they are using - "fully consistent" with blood doping. My concern here is how are they establishing a baseline to compare his samples to? A normal person's blood? An athlete's blood? A cyclist's blood? A person who was diagnosed with testicular cancer, treated with chemo and other drugs and is now in remission's blood? Are we sure nothing happens to blood samples after all this time, even if cryogenically frozen? And, again, how are we basing the cryo results? Again, did they freeze a person who was diagnosed with testicular cancer, treated with chemo and other drugs and is now in remission's blood and conduct tests to make sure nothing happens to old frozen samples?
Ian
For example, the claim is that the most recent tests done on LA's 2+ year old samples are, what's the phrase they are using - "fully consistent" with blood doping. My concern here is how are they establishing a baseline to compare his samples to? A normal person's blood? An athlete's blood? A cyclist's blood? A person who was diagnosed with testicular cancer, treated with chemo and other drugs and is now in remission's blood? Are we sure nothing happens to blood samples after all this time, even if cryogenically frozen? And, again, how are we basing the cryo results? Again, did they freeze a person who was diagnosed with testicular cancer, treated with chemo and other drugs and is now in remission's blood and conduct tests to make sure nothing happens to old frozen samples?
Ian
Sorry guys - in my opinion, if someone knowingly uses something that was illegal at the time of competition, whether it be a performance enhancing drug, a non-compliant engine, or whatever, that gives them a competitive advantage, they are a cheat, regardless of whether or not everyone else was doing it. If everyone was doing it, they are all cheats. Maybe I am being naive but I look at it from the point of view of the "clean" competitors.... Perhaps if everyone is doing it, as Scott says, it is time to look at three Olympic Games: The clean Olympics, the Paralympics and the drug enhanced Olympics? Some records would surely tumble then.
Yes, but define "performance enhancing." By that token even isotonic drinks are "performance enhancing" and artificially balance electrolytes whilst rehydrating.
Any form of embrocation is also "performance enhancing" as it helps restore shagged muscles and I'll bet athletes use a ton of that.
There's no end to "enhancements" to replace stuff that's lost during exertion. Cortiscosteroids help to reduce inflammation of bronchial passages caused by over stressing the breathing tracts caused by, er, exercise - they are NOT anabolic steroids, but I do understand that they are banned and why, my point is that almost EVERYTHING remedial that athletes use is "performance enhancing" or more accurately, "performance restoring". The list is endless.
My question still stands, why have his former friends and team mates effectively destroyed his reputation? To what purpose after the fact?
It explains nothing when you say "he was caught cheating". I could understand a competitor "shopping" him, but his mates?
Something doesn't add up.
Any form of embrocation is also "performance enhancing" as it helps restore shagged muscles and I'll bet athletes use a ton of that.
There's no end to "enhancements" to replace stuff that's lost during exertion. Cortiscosteroids help to reduce inflammation of bronchial passages caused by over stressing the breathing tracts caused by, er, exercise - they are NOT anabolic steroids, but I do understand that they are banned and why, my point is that almost EVERYTHING remedial that athletes use is "performance enhancing" or more accurately, "performance restoring". The list is endless.
My question still stands, why have his former friends and team mates effectively destroyed his reputation? To what purpose after the fact?
It explains nothing when you say "he was caught cheating". I could understand a competitor "shopping" him, but his mates?
Something doesn't add up.
There's no way you can equate carbohydrate/protein drinks to steroids/EPO/HGH. The side effect of too carbohydrate? You might get fat.
Steroids/EPO/HGH side effects? Testicular shrinkage/cancer, hip necrosis, heart attacks, agromegaly, immune system compromise etc etc. A number of pro cyclists died in their sleep in the early 90s because their blood hematocrit was over 60%. Great for aerobic capacity, not so good for regular heart beat when sleeping.
So let's leave the arguement "it's all performance enhancing" aside. They are not the same. There are real risks with using these drugs, and cyclists shouldn't have to be forced to use them to make it in the pros. That's what USADA is trying to do.
As to why people are dropping the dime on Armstrong. First off, I suspect they feel some guilt for their past sins of doping. You combine that with the fact that the Feds came around and told them to fess up, or spend a lot of $ defending themselves against sanctions which would effect their ability to earn a living with the short amount of time they have left in the sport. So they made their lives easier and rolled over on him.
I rather doubt they rolled because they thought he'd be a good patsy. It's clear that the guy likes to fight, and make life difficult for people who cross him (Simeoni, Bassons). They did it because it was in their best interest to do so, and they can feel good about knowing it might help clean up the sport. Equally, I doubt they made shit up about Armstrong. That's a great way to get yourself in serious hot water.
Steroids/EPO/HGH side effects? Testicular shrinkage/cancer, hip necrosis, heart attacks, agromegaly, immune system compromise etc etc. A number of pro cyclists died in their sleep in the early 90s because their blood hematocrit was over 60%. Great for aerobic capacity, not so good for regular heart beat when sleeping.
So let's leave the arguement "it's all performance enhancing" aside. They are not the same. There are real risks with using these drugs, and cyclists shouldn't have to be forced to use them to make it in the pros. That's what USADA is trying to do.
As to why people are dropping the dime on Armstrong. First off, I suspect they feel some guilt for their past sins of doping. You combine that with the fact that the Feds came around and told them to fess up, or spend a lot of $ defending themselves against sanctions which would effect their ability to earn a living with the short amount of time they have left in the sport. So they made their lives easier and rolled over on him.
I rather doubt they rolled because they thought he'd be a good patsy. It's clear that the guy likes to fight, and make life difficult for people who cross him (Simeoni, Bassons). They did it because it was in their best interest to do so, and they can feel good about knowing it might help clean up the sport. Equally, I doubt they made shit up about Armstrong. That's a great way to get yourself in serious hot water.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Just to update this thread, this sure looks like more -- way more -- evidence of guilt than "unnamed sources" or a "witch hunt."
USADA report claims Lance Armstrong was at center of doping program - News | FOX Sports on MSN
USADA report claims Lance Armstrong was at center of doping program - News | FOX Sports on MSN
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Seems so, I guess he could afford better doctors/scientists, than the anti doping
Authorities.
Amazing given how many times he was tested and found clean.
Authorities.
Amazing given how many times he was tested and found clean.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Boom Boom, Lol.:laugh:
OK, so anyone who defended Lance Armstrong by saying he didn't dope and it's just a big witch hunt can officially acknowledge that's all incorrect.
Lance Armstrong admits to Oprah Winfrey: I doped for years - News | FOX Sports on MSN
Getting blood transfusions during the middle of the TDF to try to cover it up.....seriously? The lengthy list of banned PED substances that he used? For god's sake.
And just because others were doping, well, that's totally irrelevant and no justification. Each person, each athlete, is judged on his or her own merits, or failings.
Witch hunt? Seriously? Lance was the focus because he's the one that stole all the glory and fame from everyone else! Duh. Of course he's going to be the focus.
The Livestrong Foundation work is all good stuff of course, but it's funding, existence and its very spirit is all based upon a huge deception.
The whole thing is just pathetic. You're either a man or a mouse in life. Lance is a mouse, and admitting one's wrong doings doesn't change that.
Lance Armstrong admits to Oprah Winfrey: I doped for years - News | FOX Sports on MSN
Getting blood transfusions during the middle of the TDF to try to cover it up.....seriously? The lengthy list of banned PED substances that he used? For god's sake.
And just because others were doping, well, that's totally irrelevant and no justification. Each person, each athlete, is judged on his or her own merits, or failings.
Witch hunt? Seriously? Lance was the focus because he's the one that stole all the glory and fame from everyone else! Duh. Of course he's going to be the focus.
The Livestrong Foundation work is all good stuff of course, but it's funding, existence and its very spirit is all based upon a huge deception.
The whole thing is just pathetic. You're either a man or a mouse in life. Lance is a mouse, and admitting one's wrong doings doesn't change that.
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Bang to rights. Ironically the boost his successes gave competitive cycling has turned into the elephant that may yet still destroy it.
He seems to be trying hard not to name the governing body methinks?
He is definitely quite skilled at manipulation, and perhaps this is part of his strategy.
It's going to costs him big bucks, but the people I really feel sorry for are the Olympic Gold Medal winners and the 2012 TdF winner. No-one will look at them again now, in quite the same light - their personal achievements majorly diminished. I was wrong about him - I just couldn't believe it...
He seems to be trying hard not to name the governing body methinks?
He is definitely quite skilled at manipulation, and perhaps this is part of his strategy.
It's going to costs him big bucks, but the people I really feel sorry for are the Olympic Gold Medal winners and the 2012 TdF winner. No-one will look at them again now, in quite the same light - their personal achievements majorly diminished. I was wrong about him - I just couldn't believe it...
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Lance Armstrong is a lying and ungrateful sack of shit. What he deserves is the thing he most fears: to be forgotten.
As in "Lance who?"
As in "Lance who?"
In the beginning I believed him if for no other reason than he'd passed all those doping tests...just as during the first couple days of the O.J. Simpson situation, I believed him to be innocent too. I thought the LAPD had lost its collective mind.
Aaaaaaaaaaand then the facts in both cases started coming out...
Aaaaaaaaaaand then the facts in both cases started coming out...
