Motec fuel injection

rbrunckhorst · 04-03-04, 12:21 PM

Has anyone have experience using an engine dyno with the Motec unit. Does Motec make a wiring harness for doing engine dyno? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

**patbarry** · 04-03-04, 05:34 PM

When I called Motec, they said the best way to set the unit up is to do it on a dyno. There is guy here in Houston whom they recommended, but he nas yet to call me back. To answer your question, yes there is a special wire hook-up, I can't remember what they call it. This connects the unit to the PC. You can buy it, I think it's about $100, if memory serves.

Robert Logan · 04-04-04, 03:30 AM

We tune ours with a lap top and when we use a dyno they have the custom looms at the dyno rooms.

Please remember that you have only limited data logging with the MoTeC M800 management unit. Hershal can confirm the time for free. You can buy extra time but this is not needed if you get on with it !!!

Best wishes,

Robert

**patbarry** · 04-04-04, 08:24 PM

You can download the software to run on your pc from Motec. I have it, very dense (at least to me). I think that I have a unit that I will never maximize the potential of. Sorry for the preposition at the end.

Hershal Byrd · 04-04-04, 11:50 PM

Robert is correct. You get six hours of free Lambda time on the Motec system. What you do is place two 5 wire Lambdas into the headers and plug them into the RF harness. you may have to get some adapter plugs to mate the two. Once this is done you can start the engine and the lambdas will set a program that will run your engine just fine. Once the engine is running and the program is saved then you can remove the lambdas and install some plugs. Still the best thing is to have a a few dyno runs to dial it in a 100%.

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

JP · 04-05-04, 05:25 AM

You might want to leave the lamda sensors in place. Pay the extra bucks, upgrade the Motec ECU, and run a closed loop system. Your engine will stay in tune all the time.

This is what I have now opted for.

My engine was mapped on the dyno using Motec. Took a day! But it was money well spent.

Regards,

J.P

rbrunckhorst · 04-05-04, 08:55 AM

I assume the above post refer to a chassis dyno using the engine already in the car. I was questioning how to set up an engine dyno ie the engine has not been placed in the car yet. Does this require the dyno to have a custom wiring harness or can one use the harness provided with the car? My engine builder has both chasis and engine dyno and wishes to do some runs on the engine dyno prior to placing the engine in the car. Unfortunately, he (we) has little experience with the Motec units.
As to upgrading the ECU, any idea on how much this costs?

jercarnut · 04-05-04, 10:11 AM

Hi Rolf,
I believe that I have the lead that you might be looking for. It runs from IBM Laptop to motec unit provided by Robert. We also have adapters to enable the use of other brands of computers. We are tuning on a regular bases on the blue car. Any help or assistance that I could be, please let me know.

JP · 04-05-04, 11:09 AM

My engine was mapped on an engine dyno. Superflow. not in the car.

I would recommend you contact Motec and get a rep from their company to map your engine.

Regards,

J.P

JayT · 04-05-04, 09:33 PM

Hershal & Robert, JT and I have almost gotten to the point of starting the engine (we had a set back because the water pump was wrong). Is there an option to buy from MoTec for full Lamddas feed back? Also which Lamda sensor should we get?

PS When are you coming over for NB show?

Hershal Byrd · 04-06-04, 12:30 AM

Jay,
I don't have the lambda part number here now but I will post them tomorrow.
My GT40 has run for over two years without the lambdas in place. Once the computer has the proper info to control the engine there is no need for the lambdas to stay attached to the system. These things are expensive and leaving them in is going to shorten their usefulness. I do however install them on occasion and get a recheck to see if there has been a change. I save this program and compare it to the one in use. So far there is little or no change in the timing and fuel charts. At first I thought this Motec system was a little pricey for me but now I'm sold. This is by far the best there is and it has been flawless since installation. If it's good enough for F-1 then it's good enough for me.

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Eric · 04-06-04, 02:21 AM

I would be interested in a good detailed pic of the lambda sensor. I dont know which one motec sells, but i bet it is a generic ntk or bosch unit. ntk can be had for about $160 cdn and bosch for less than half that. But i guess they ding you hard to pemanately unlock the wideband option.

TimOz40 · 04-06-04, 08:11 PM

Eric,
I have permanent Lambda enabled on my Clubman (see pic), it was about $600 AUS. We use a MoTeC LCD dash unit and can actually display "lambda" as we drive and with passenger armed with laptop, we can tell the motec what lambda figure we want at whatever the load-site is and it will make the adjustment accordingly in real time. Having lambda logged is also useful for downloading after a race meeting and tweeking the map.

Hershal Byrd · 04-07-04, 12:00 AM

The Lambdas are Bosch LSU. I don't see any numbers on them. They have five wires on each one.
Here are a couple photos of my setup. These plugs were specially wired for the RF system.

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Eric · 04-07-04, 01:56 AM

If you are worried about wearing those out hersh, dont be, they are cheap, you can probably find them for about $50 usd. Unless it is the time the motec has allowed you to have that is programmed in the ecu that you are worried about wasting, i think that is expensive.

Paul Thompson 'Hooligan' · 04-07-04, 07:20 AM

I use the Motec Pro Lambda meter below when tuning, which comes with the Bosch 5-wire sensor detailed above, but they have a reference code engraved on each that you enter into the meter for more accurate results.

If you are able to locate the sensors below $100 I would be interested as they are considerably more over here!

Also - If you have the Motec Lambda meter, you can connect one of its outputs to the ECU and give full-time wide-band Lambda control to the ECU without paying for the 2-hour limit to be extended to unlimited. (hope that makes sense)

Motec make great kit - but hey - i'm biased... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ron Earp · 04-07-04, 08:18 AM

Oxygen sensors are oxygen sensors - that is, the electrochemistry of how they work is the same regardless of who makes it. There are heated (usually four wire) and unheated (usually two or three wire) but any of them will fit the bill. generally they run about $65-75 bucks at the parts stores, so why are you fellows paying more?

As for output there are numerous output gauges that are dirt cheap for an oxygen sensor. I use a Cyberdyne that displays a bar graph from rich to lean. About $65 and I'm sure cheaper than anything MoTec makes - heck, $65 might not buy anything from Motec. Anyhow, the Cyberdyne works well and allows me to tune the car.

As for output, well, all oxygen sensors output a measurable voltage that is from 0-1V. The gauges just interpret that for you on a graph, gauge, or, in the case of this "expensive" Motec gauge they just display the output to you with no interpretation - odd if you ask me. So, if you like you can simply use your volt meter and get the same info (there might be some impedence issues but on the whole it works okay).

Eric · 04-07-04, 09:55 AM

Actually Ron, there are 3 different types of O2 sensors i know of. The normal switching type like you describe which only reads the AFR acuratley around 14.7:1, it just knows if the ratio is higher or lower than that, there is one in my parents 88 jeep cherokee which makes no sense to me but it reads around 2..5 volts at 14.7:1 and then last one i know of is this "lambda" one we are talkiing about. It willl accuratley read the AFR from about 10:1 up to about 20:1. It is kind of hard to check the voltages, you need a controller of some sort to use it but when hooked to a controller or read through the ecu using a scan tool, voltage goes from about 1.5v-4v. They are so accurate that the honda ntk sensor has a little resister chip built in to the conector that is a calibration thing to offset any error. I guess the bosch lsu1-lsu4 must have something similar (an offset code written on it as someone suggested above?).

Ron Earp · 04-07-04, 10:23 AM

Yes, there are others as well but I was referring to the type generally found found in production units which are simple 0-1V transition type that is continiously monitored. If I remember correctly the one in your Jeep was also found in a couple of Fords of that era but it has sort of died off and the industry became more "standardized" on outputs and type. They certainly are now with OBDII!

The other you mention is very rare in OEM applications and has a much wider dynamic range than most. I don't think the "lambda" is attached to one that produces the output you describe though. The term is used with just about any O2 sensor I can find, however it might be being used incorrectly.

At any rate, the electrochemical that occurs in the sensors is the same (with slight variations). I have not experienced the problems you have using a good volt meter attached to the sensor - I get a good reading but since the signal is in a constant state of flux a I suggest a good time-series type meter from Fluke or similar. I have a cool digital oscilloscope that comes in handy for these and looking at injector duty cycles etc.

Paul Thompson 'Hooligan' · 04-07-04, 03:53 PM

Hi again

I have three metering systems but only the motec will give a true reading of just how lean or rich the engine is operating at. I usually aim for Lambda reading of between 0.85 and 0.9 for power although it obviously varies from engine to engine.

A simple rich/lean meter is still very useful for setup (and very cost effective) but not as versatile IMHO.

Finally - I checked my Bosch LSU4 (5 wire) wideband sensor and its part number is '0 258 006 066' (all Bosch parts have 10 digit part numbers), so if anyone can locate a cheap replacement source - please post details.

Also - Motec also list an NTK sensor (same as mentioned??) - very trick - seven wire sensor and alas - even more expensive - don't ask!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Not too sure why they call Oxygen sensors Lambda sensors, other than the symbol used to indicate the reading.

Finally - (in case anyone is still interested)
Air fuel ratio equivalence for Petrol is:
Lambda Ratio
0.80 -- 11.8
0.85 -- 12.5 -- Richer Still ------ ** Max Power ??
0.90 -- 13.2 -- More Rich ------- ** Max Power ??
0.95 -- 14.0 -- Rich
1.00 -- 14.7 -- Stoichiometric --- Good emissions
1.05 -- 15.4 -- Lean ------------ Economy mode
1.10 -- 16.2 -- More Lean
1.15 -- 16.9
1.20 -- 17.6

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