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GT40 Tech - Powertrain/TransaxlesTransaxles and driveline - don't dare post engine things here!
I am in the middle of almost completing a 1uzfe (Lexus v8) to the audi 012 (porsche G86) transmission adapter plate. I have a friend who owns his own cnc machine and we were wondering how much interest there would be for this product. After completing the adapter plate, I will have a flywheel spacer adapter created to bolt up a factory audi flywheel with factory pressure plate and clutch. The flex plate for the 1uzfe will still be used for the starter to start the motor. Any advise or critisism will be appreciated. (Note I am not trying to sell a product, Just wondering if there is a demand for this to see if its worth making a product.)
I am in the middle of doing the exact same thing, I'm intending to do a custom flywheel with a complete A6 V6 clutch.
How much does the stock Audi flywheel weigh? My www research says approx 38lb?
In my design the face of the flywheel ends up approx 65mm from the bolt face on the crank. There is some concern that this ammount of offset is getting big and will place undue loads on the (really strong ) crank. If you go the route you describe the CG of the flywheel will be considerably further from the end of the crank than using a custom "witches hat" type shape for the flywheel.
The CAD system is currently showing the mass on my flywheel at just over 5kg as a comparrision to the stock one.
I have been following your build, and was waiting to see you finish it, and was going to ask you if you could sell me an adapter in the near future. However i want to get a move on, on my project. Anyways, I was planning on buying an audi light weight flywheel, I think they weigh somewhere around 16lbs. Then I was going to use a performance clutch probably from the 2.7tt a4? motor. Is there any proof on this type of offset hurting the crank? I would assume if everything was ballanced properly this issue wouldn't happen. If you could explain more to me about the subject I would greatly appreciate it. I would hate to loose a motor due to that. It just seems like the easiest thing to do. So far I have my alluminum plate for the project and I made an input shaft for the transmission that fits perfectly into the 1uzfe to align them together perfectly. So the plan for now is to take the motor, tilt it on its pulley side and place the transmission on top of it, and trace everything out. Then take to my cnc guy and have him finish it and trace it all out so he can have the file.
Yeah the simple fact is that although the rotating assemby may be balanced, once its running vibration from the clutch and driveline will act to shake the whole thing.
Esimating those loads is beyod me at the moment so whether it turns into a practical issue for the crank is something only time will tell I think as this stage.
The 2.7TT had a dual mass flywheel and the bolting - clutch face is not flat as a result, this is why I went for the A6 2.8 unit. I assume the aftermarket flywheel you are looking at is not dual mass and has no other odd balance characteristicts.
How close is the bolting on the crank between the Audi flywheel? You would end up with very long bolts holding on the flywheel if they need to go through the whole setup. Do ARP or someone else make soemthing suitable? These need to be a very high strength - quality bolt for this application.
It looks like there are several of us doing similar things for the 012 trans. My engine of choice is the small block Ford. I have gotten all the bolt locations set for the adapter plate but am working on the plate thickness and getting the flywheel and pressure plate finger dimensions correct so the Audi throw-out fork will work correctly.
Justin, keep in mind that alignment dowels are sold that can change the alignment of the bellhousings by as little as .007" so tracing bolt holes may not be very accurate. Lakewood 15950 - Lakewood Bellhousing Dowel Pins - JEGS
You appear to be at the same point I am. When I get home from the trip I'm on at the moment I'll be getting into measuring the setup of the pressure plate, thrust bearing ect. I'll post the results when I get that sorted. I'm using a clutch from an 2.8L Audi (A6), at the moment I'm guessing that going with the splines on the friction plate just fully engaged is the way to go.
The same adapter plate can be used for just about any dual bolt pattern Audi gearbox, 012, 01E, 01X, and probably the newest iteration as well. If you select the proper bolt holes, it will also fit the 016.
The 012 BTW is a pretty weak gearbox. Gears are rather slim in width and the main and output shafts are supported by a single bearing at each end. A modified audi 1.8 turbo can create enough torque to strip out 3rd gear.
The attached picture shows the measurements I took tonight on my 012.
With the measurements as shown and the A6 clutch used there would be 2mm clearance between the thrust bearing and the spring fingers in their fully extended position. This would occur in the fully worn state for the clutch plate.
I've yet to determine how much clutch fork movement is needed to disengage the clutch. But the next thing is to determine that there's enough movement in the thrust bearing to disengage the clutch in the brand new condition.
All of the above is assumeing that the friction plate is only just fully engaged on the input shaft when new.
There is the possibility of adjusting out the bottom pivot point for the lever that operates the thrust bearing, by default it protrudes 20mm this could be packed out further if required by putting washers under it. But there's no way to get at it with the transmission attached to the engine, so that would need to be right bore it was all dropped in to the car.
The attached picture shows the measurements I took tonight on my 012.
With the measurements as shown and the A6 clutch used there would be 2mm clearance between the thrust bearing and the spring fingers in their fully extended position. This would occur in the fully worn state for the clutch plate.
I've yet to determine how much clutch fork movement is needed to disengage the clutch. But the next thing is to determine that there's enough movement in the thrust bearing to disengage the clutch in the brand new condition.
All of the above is assuming that the friction plate is only just fully engaged on the input shaft when new.
There is the possibility of adjusting out the bottom pivot point for the lever that operates the thrust bearing, by default it protrudes 20mm this could be packed out further if required by putting washers under it. But there's no way to get at it with the transmission attached to the engine, so that would need to be right bore it was all dropped in to the car.
Push type clutch diaphram??.......take a new clutch/FW assembly(pressure plate bolts torqued and disk centered) and support it in a hydro-press. using a TOB as the interference point, apply pressure. Use a mic or dial indicator to determine diaphram travel(dial indicator with magnetic holder is best....must be perfectly vertical of TOB surface to measure proper distance moved) Use a screwdriver to lightly apply side pressure to the disk via any one of the discharge slots on the side of the pressure plate. Slowly keep applying pressure until the disk releases to the side. Note the amount of travel applied to diaphram, factor in additional ~ .020" there for proper release clearance.
Then determine leverage ratio of the fork itself and convert travel distance for slave cylinder
Pull type clutches(Subaru Sti, Porsche) are a bit more difficult to setup in this manner but follow the same principle for determining travel.
Really useless to do on anything other than brand new FW and clutch assembly.
Push type clutch diaphram??.......take a new clutch/FW assembly(pressure plate bolts torqued and disk centered) and support it in a hydro-press. using a TOB as the interference point, apply pressure. Use a mic or dial indicator to determine diaphram travel(dial indicator with magnetic holder is best....must be perfectly vertical of TOB surface to measure proper distance moved) Use a screwdriver to lightly apply side pressure to the disk via any one of the discharge slots on the side of the pressure plate. Slowly keep applying pressure until the disk releases to the side. Note the amount of travel applied to diaphram, factor in additional ~ .020" there for proper release clearance.
Then determine leverage ratio of the fork itself and convert travel distance for slave cylinder
Pull type clutches(Subaru Sti, Porsche) are a bit more difficult to setup in this manner but follow the same principle for determining travel.
Really useless to do on anything other than brand new FW and clutch assembly.
Hope that helps....
Sounds like a great plan except I don't know what TOB stands for?
The 0.020" (~0.5mm) was the number I'd been worrying about, my uneducated guess had come up with 2mm. So thanks for that.
Hey Doug, a good mate of mine owns a performance clutch business in Osborne Park. If you're ever up that way, you should call in with what you've got and have it tested.
Sounds like a great plan except I don't know what TOB stands for?
The 0.020" (~0.5mm) was the number I'd been worrying about, my uneducated guess had come up with 2mm. So thanks for that.
Oppps, sorry Doug. TOB = Throw out bearing like others said.
I just want to clarify something because I re-read your other post and I think I confused you with the dimension I was giving.
The .020" additional factor is a rough dimension that I add in to the total diaphram spring finger travel to allow some float clearance for the disk between the friction surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate when the clutch is in the disengaged position.
Example: Say when you setup your particular clutch in the press and do the procedure I mentioned above and the disk releases freely when you have compressed the diaphram springs 1". Take that 1" measurement and add in an additional .020". Some factor in more clearance for this on a street type organic clutch setup for more longevity(upwards of .06-.08") This gives the disk enough room to freely spin between the friction surfaces w/o binding or dragging which would cause excessive heat and wear, however not so much as to cause a bunch of clutch chatter on engaging. Carbon or semi metallic race clutches grip better with more heat, but also chatter more as well thus the smaller .020" factor.
From your original post it looks like you're wondering what amount of clearance is necessary between the diaphram spring fingers and the throw out bearing pressure race when in a fully engaged position(no pressure on clutch pedal)??? Typically I like to have the TOB to lightly touch the springs, as this keep the rattling noise down and "feel" of the clutch right where it should be. Any sort of gap between the two said components and the clutch will feel smushy at first pressure until the TOB contacts the clutch diaphram.
(Another example, but for pull type clutches(porsche, sti)....a light spring is used on the clutch fork itself to provide slight drawback pressure. It's typically positioned in the vicinity of the slave cylinder on the outside of the bell housing. This keeps contact pressure of the clutch fork fingers into the throw out bearing lock tabs, but also provides some pullback tension of the throw out bearing against the wedge collar........the component in a pull type clutch diaphram that affixes the TOB to the clutch and pulls against the diaphram springs)
) crank. If you go the route you describe the CG of the flywheel will be considerably further from the end of the crank than using a custom "witches hat" type shape for the flywheel.
