012 and 016 transaxle strengths for something different… a 4x4 off-road rock crawler

[chris]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post here on the site. I have really enjoyed looking at some of the innovative projects you all are putting together. So... the title may have caught a few of you off guard as I am not trying to build a race car from scratch, but a small 4x4 off-road rock crawler the size of a Suzuki samurai ( off-road 4x4 vehicle that travels through challenging terrain such as rocks, mud, snow, etc...) <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_1" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="http://www.gt40s.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif" style='width:11.25pt; height:11.25pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Minchuk\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_ima ge001.gif" o:title="shocked"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->

I have been doing a lot of research for the design of the vehicle. I actually plan on using a motorcycle engine, ranging from 600cc to 1300cc that will then mate up to either a 012 or 016 transaxle, or maybe another transaxle I haven't even thought of.

The reason behind using either the 012 or the 016 transmission is because I need to use a fwd transaxle for starters. I plan on using it as a second transmission in addition to the motorcyles. Using the fwd trans out of either the 012 or 016 will give me the correct input and output rotation which will allow the vehicles axles to rotate the proper way to make it go forward. Basically instead of using cv shafts that go to the tires, the cv shafts will go to both a front and rear solid axles acting more like drive shafts.

Another reasoning behind using these transaxles, is for their availability and how cheap they are.

What I kinda know about the 012:

The 012 is able to at least handle 207 ft-lbs of torque since it was available for the passat 2.8L 30v.

With the torque rating on the motorcycle engine being at least 240 ft-lbs (600cc suzuki gsxr) after coming from the crankshaft going through the motorcycle’s primary and transmission gears, it’s a little unsettling as I don't exactly know the max torque rating that the 012 can handle from the manufacturer.

I did see the recent thread titled "Audi/Getrag Codes and Gear ratios" saying the 012 could handle 310NM since one of the models of A6/A4/Pasatt's engines was rated at this. The problem is that I haven’t been able to physically find the model the 012 is in that is rated at 310Nm(228ft-lbs).

I have read that the Porsche boxster 5speed also contains a 012 with opposite final drive rotation., but once again I haven't been able to find anything discrete about max input torque.

What I kinda know about the 016:
This trans was available in the audi 5000's, which I’m not quite sure what years. I have read that it has an ability to handle quite a bit of torque, not sure if this is more or less than the 012.

Main concerns:<o:p></o:p>

• I really want to find a transaxle that is able to handle a decent amount of torque (225ft-lbs at least to 350ft-lbs) that I can just pull out of the junk yard with some minor maintenance of course. <o:p></o:p>
• Hopefully it will be light (around 125lbs)<o:p></o:p>
• Have a short overall length (around 25")<o:p></o:p>
• The transaxle must be manual as an automatic will not work<o:p></o:p>
• A 5 speed is preferred as it will be a second transmission or more of a transfer case (way in which to multiply the gearing to allow the vehicle more torque for crazier obstacles.)The main tranny will be the motorcycles so a six speed audi/vw trans will be overdone.<o:p></o:p>
• I was also hoping to be able to use a push/pull shifter setup which sound like a possibility if the 012 is made for Porsche as I have read the boxsters have this type of system.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks for checking out the thread and I greatly appreciate any info you can give me about these transaxles
Chris<o:p></o:p>

[Cliff Beer]

Hi Chris, I don't know a whole lot about the 012 but I've picked up some data points on the 016 after mucking around with them for a while (and having five of them stacked up in my garage or in my GT40 for a few years). Here's some info that might be helpful:

1. Gear ratios - chart is attached.
2. There's a relatively easy process for strengthening the housing - also attached.
3. The weak point seems to be the spider gears (strip or break under load) or the housing breaks. Needless to say, drop clutch burnouts are likely causes of failure so best to avoid that.
4. 016 without t/o bearing and arm or any clutch components (inc. slave cylinder) weighs a hair over 100lbs. With output flanges and full of oil it'll be about 110lbs. I know because I recently shipped a couple out and had to weigh them precisely prior to shipping.

Overall, it seems like a pretty good basic box for hp/tq in the range you're speaking of....and, of course, it's cheap....very cheap, compared to a porsche 911 G50 box or a ZF. And if it breaks, heck, go get another one.

Hope this helps!

[chris]

Cliff,
thanks for the info. This does sound like a relatively cheap and easy trans to find. Do you happen to know the max torque specs from the models and makes the 016 came in, or at least the biggest engine (hp and torque) that the 016 was behind from the factory? What hp and torque have you been running to your 016?
thanks again,
chris

[Ron Earp]

Originally Posted by chris97xj

Cliff,
thanks for the info. This does sound like a relatively cheap and easy trans to find. Do you happen to know the max torque specs from the models and makes the 016 came in, or at least the biggest engine (hp and torque) that the 016 was behind from the factory?
chris

Just going by memory but not much. OEM on Audi 5000 sedans from like 1984-1987. Probably about 150 hp and similar torque.

Lots of guys use the tranaxles behind small block Fords making around 300 hp. They seem to work fine if one avoids the hard launches. That said, you can find plenty of folks that have munched them. Cheap though.

[Terry Oxandale]

I've not actually performed this swap, but I've been told by a Porsche mechanic that the 944 turbo's 3.38 R&P will fit into the 016 box:

As per: Parts for rebuilt LSD 016R AOR gearbox for 944 Turbo S

[Jim Cowden]

Terry I have done the 944 to o16, it is not a straight swap.
Machining required and a bit of dicking around.
First time around I would allow 20 plus hrs maybe 30 as it was a while ago.

Jim

[Terry Oxandale]

Thanks Jim. Was the previous link (from another similar post) accurate regarding the work required (larger bearing/shift rod spacing etc), or was there more to it?