Canadian kit car laws

[David Sturch]

You have a point Russ. Not everything in safety check or SVA will find structural defects. They don't let unsafe cars on the track either. What do they do NZ. Is it easier than Canada.
Dave

[David Sturch]

That's the reason they make it so hard for us. Like I said make it like aircraft, they have an AE inspect through stages of the build. I do know about MVSS(MotorVehicleSafetyStandards) I worked for GM for over 30 years.
Dave

[Mark Charlton]

Originally Posted by A-tomic

... The problem that Transports Canada has is with cars that are imported as kits assembled and sold to a customer. There is no MVSS in those cars...
Dave

Dave, partially true. Oddly enough, as Chris will confirm, TC will happily help you import the parts within their "rules" to allow you to build a kit-based car. They just don't want you to import a complete (or completed) kit. Kind of stupid and has NOTHING to do with safety, in actuality. I agree with you and wish they would simply have an SVA inspection process to ensure that safe vehicles are built instead. Problem is they don't have the staff or resources to do that and so by generally discouraging kit imports, they minimize the problem by putting off all but those of us who are most persistent. Off-loading the inspections to the Provincial level would be simple and easy, but would require five years of consultations, re-written laws etc.

Sad thing is that there is a lot of potential opportunity here if low-volume vehicle production would be permitted. Not just with cars like ours, but with low-emissions and alternate fuel vehicles as well. Regulations do make things safer for the masses—I get that—, but sometimes it causes a slow death by bureaucracy.

[Mark Charlton]

So Dave. Let's see. You worked at GM for 30 years. You're interested in building a 60's style race car and it's 5 inches lower than a GT40.

Something like this?

OK, scratch that. I just saw your B16 posts. Very nice!

[Russ Noble]

Originally Posted by A-tomic

You have a point Russ. Not everything in safety check or SVA will find structural defects. They don't let unsafe cars on the track either. What do they do NZ. Is it easier than Canada.
Dave

Dave,

We have a safety schedule for race cars here too and cars are audited for compliance every three meetings or 6 months which ever comes sooner.

For road registration it is a lot tougher, but fair and generally reasonable.The government has setup the LVVTA Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association, Inc which is responsible for all modified, scratchbuilt, kit and other specialty interest vehicles that are not volume produced. i.e. less than 200 identical units per year I think.

These have to be certified by officially appointed certifiers and for a scratchbuilt or kit car that means five stages of inspection covering
1 Design
2 Chassis
3 Suspension/wheels/brakes
4 Bodywork/electrical/interior
5 Road test.

With regard to design and construction, standards accepted by different certifiers vary considerably. Some certifiers don't want to know unless it's built out of 1/4" plate!

I belong to the CCC Constructors Car Club (Inc) and the club is fortunate in having three official certifiers. They are essentially volunteers doing it in their own time for their own interest, although the club has set a remuneration of $65 per inspection and this is paid by the builder. Each inspection usually takes a couple of hours but then there is the general discussion and socialising afterwards too.

The club caters for alternative designs and ideas, mainly scratchbuilts and kit cars, and has issued a 3/4" thick build manual to guide you through all the hoops and regulations.

Basically everything is straight forward although any fabricated suspension or steering components must have a cracktest certificate. Door latchs and hinges, if not from a complying production car, must have an engineers certificate. And thats about it plus of course good engineering practices and the usual bits, lights, wipers etc etc.

Cheers

[Chris Martino]

So is this just one judges opinion on the matter and have no effect on the current regulations? Could anyone that has a similar shipment of parts seized by TC refer to this judgment?

There's no excuse for not having a Canadian version of the SVA, LVVTA, etc. SEMA has gone Canadian - here's the link: SEMA Action Network - Auto enthusiasts protecting our hobby :: Canada Member Signup Form


Chris

[Mark Charlton]

Chris, if I was importing a "kit" now, I would print that ruling and present it to customs upon importation. I can't see how it would NOT be a precedence. I'd very much like to see what Harry B has to say about it. I might even call him and ask.

BTW, have you heard of SVAO? You should join.

Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario Official Home Page.

[Chris Martino]

Thanks Mark - let me know if you speak with TC, very curious! I think I re-newed my SVAO membership a month ago so yep, a member since 2005.

Chris

[David Sturch]

Russ,
The setup you have in NZ sounds pretty good. There is nothing in Canada like that except for experimental homebuilt aircraft. So you see the government's concern for safety. Not everyone here in the kit buisiness are mechanic's or engineer's either. I'm lucky because of my background I can talk to engineer, millwright,welder ,tooly if I have problems any time.
Dave

[David Sturch]

Russ,
The setup you have in NZ sounds pretty good. There is nothing in Canada like that except for experimental homebuilt aircraft. So you see the government's concern for safety. Not everyone here in the kit buisiness are mechanic's or engineer's either. I'm lucky because of my background I can talk to engineer, millwright,welder ,tooly if I have problems any time.
Dave

[David Sturch]

Sorry about the double post.

I think we (us in Ontario) should use Russ's model or New Zealand's rules and the CCC build rules on our own. That way is show's the governments we have some sense of responsablity in this Industry. I would be more than happy to buy a chassis or have some one build me a chassis that was inspected and signed off for the stage of the build.
Dave

[Dave]

Originally Posted by ChrisMartino

There's no excuse for not having a Canadian version of the SVA, LVVTA, etc.


Chris

Hang on.... In Canada a home built vehicle isn't required to pass an SVA (single vehicle approval) test????

Is there no kind of safety test for these vehicles, or am i reading that wrong Chris???

[Ron Earp]

No such thing in America either. Title the car, get a registration, pass yearly safety inspection all cars have to do (lights, horn, wipers - that is about it) and off you go. No engineer looks at a US kit car for road registration purposes.

R

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ron Earp

No such thing in America either. Title the car, get a registration, pass yearly safety inspection all cars have to do (lights, horn, wipers - that is about it) and off you go. No engineer looks at a US kit car for road registration purposes.

R

Kit cars in the UK have to pass the SVA test with looks at all the standard stuff that's covered in the yearly MOT test... and a hell of a lot more .

http://www.dvtani.gov.uk/uploads/veh...svabooklet.pdf

it strikes me that, that would be a far better way to go and more sensible than just, making it difficult to import a car... it could only make the standard of cars better on the roads.

[Chris Martino]

MDA has been sending their cars through SVA with great success and was one of the reasons I opted for their product. Upon asking Transport Canada if they would consider the SVA to be in the spirit of safety and sound engineering they replied with this:

A. Where a replicar or a kit car complies with only those CMVSS listed in the Single Vehicle Approval Testing (SVA) manual it will NOT be admissible for importation into Canada, unless it also complies with those CMVSS that are not listed in the SVA, and the vehicle is certified by the manufacturer and the manufacturer has all the required test records to demonstrate compliance. If the kit is considered a parts shipment, rather than a vehicle, it is irrelevant whether the parts meet SVA or CMVSS.

AND

The directorate has come to realize that, although foreign manufacturers of kit cars may claim to take safety and engineering seriously, and although many kit companies also manufacture complete cars, the industry as a whole has not made any real attempt to comply with federal standards. There are over 200 kit car manufacturers in North America alone, and to the Directorate’s knowledge, from liaising with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) in the USA, none of these vehicles or kits comply with federal standards, including kits fabricated by those companies that have manufactured more than 5000 kits. Thus far, the Directorate has not seen any indication that the industry, in Canada or the United States, practices any voluntary compliance with even those safety standards that require minimum engineering and minimum cost. Therefore, kit cars are generally not admissible for importation into Canada.


Chris

[Dave]

The message i get from TC is that they don't want kit cars in the country at all.

But it seems that the rules they have only really apply to what you can import rather than what they allow on the roads as there is no check on the finished product.

[Mark Charlton]

Dave, now you're getting it.

It's still the wild west here in some ways. Just not as wild in the ways we'd really like it to be.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Mark Charlton

Dave, now you're getting it.

It's still the wild west here in some ways. Just not as wild in the ways we'd really like it to be.

Down boy!!

Now i know importing the whole kit.. is out.

But but can import say the chassis and body.. plus things i guess like the interior, radiator maybe the windscreen, headlights in one shot.

But what if i was to import other bits separately... like the suspension and brakes in another shipment... or is that not going to work??

[David Sturch]

Dave you can import parts from the UK I have done it. It's expensive and the duty and taxes , shipping are high plus the exchange.. They have a great selection and places that sell them too. I can now get my Powerlites from Wilwood in the US because I whined to Wilwood that Ralleydesign has the rights to the product but does not sell to the North American market any more. They now have them listed with different part number. I am also looking at another set of front uprights that I can use pins with and are half the price of the Raceleda and just as nice. I may also order my steering rack mount from them too.
Dave

[Mark Charlton]

Originally Posted by Future 40 owner

Down boy!!

Now i know importing the whole kit.. is out.

But but can import say the chassis and body.. plus things i guess like the interior, radiator maybe the windscreen, headlights in one shot.

But what if i was to import other bits separately... like the suspension and brakes in another shipment... or is that not going to work??

Based on the recent Court decision, you probably could import absolutely everything except the engine and gearbox and get it in without much of a problem.

If you want to be absolutely sure you have no problems, when you do the first shipment it can include the chassis, entire body (painted even) with glass, the entire interior and various trim/parts. Separately, and from a different source(s), you can bring in the suspension, steering, brakes and other control systems. These two (or more) shipments should not originate from the same location and you might need to provide proof of separate payments if there is ever doubt. Basically, once you're past the Customs people (who simply are implementing the rules TC sets out for them), you only have to deal with provincial safety regs., which, as you've read are pretty slim.

Personally, based on what Chris posted, I would send an e-mail to Harry Baergen at Transport Canada and ASK if you can bring (and if not, under what grounds you would be prevented from bringing based on the recent Federal Court Ruling) in a "complete kit - less drivetrain" into Canada. His e-mail address (this is available freely on the internet if you know where to look) is: BAERGEH(replace with the at symbol)tc.gc.ca.

When I brought my car in, I asked (very politely) him to verify documentation provided to me by the seller to confirm to his satisfaction that my car was indeed over 15 year old and thus not subject to the prohibition on import. Harry was quite helpful and was kind enough to draft and send me a confirming letter that I provided Customs when importing my car. The entire import process took less than 15 minutes at the border in large part thanks to him.