Canadian kit car laws

[Alex]

The 17yr old thing is probably what 'saved' you - just like if there were a 17yr old factory five cobra from the US - it could walk across the border no problems. If your GTD were registered/titled/etc... legitimately as a, for example, 2005, you'd be screwed ... the 15yr exemption is the ~only~ reason they let you across easily imho

[Mark Charlton]

Alex, you are correct. the ONLY reason I could get my car in was that it was older than 15 years. But, my key point was that the TC people were quite responsive and helpful in my case.

Mark

[Alex]

True enough - however I meant they were helpful because your conversation probably went like 'Hi - I purchased this kit car that is over 15yrs old. Could you please tell me the paperwork I need to complete to legally import it'.

Not like some people on ffrcobra I've seen try - 'Hi; my FFR was made in 2007 but is titled as a 1965 in montana; how do I import it? I can't? Okay, what if I remove the engine and transmission, can I now import it? No....okay okay, but if I remove the engine, tranny, AND remove any state VIN plates attached to it so it doesn't have a serial number; now i can import it, right?' (sic)

But again, my experiences were probably jadded by having to wait 6weeks to get my legal ffr kit through the border, and later on being unable to get a Koenigsegg across =)

[Mark Charlton]

I suppose the fact that I have been dealing with all manner of Federal Government employees for over 25 years did provide me with an advantage in understanding how to go about things. I certainly sympathize with people who have difficulty understanding why it is "OK" to cobble together a home-made piece of crap and get a plate on it, or to import a 20 year old rusted out unsafe junk-heap and yet they can't bring in a car like an SPF or other low-production specialty vehicle that is markedly (an yet unproven to be) safer.

Such is the modern world in which we live. More people communicate better about how to get around rules and the other side just makes more rules. Where does it end?

Mark

[David Sturch]

Thank's Mark,
I ressemble that remark. If it wasn't for a few of us cobblers nothing would get done here. I see there is a new supercar coming out of Montreal. How is he skirting the MVSS. Is he using the prototype clause. Of course Transport Canada dosn't do any testing here. They rely on the US numbers. I wonder what the crash test rating is on the Buggatti Veyron.
I am going to try and get a VIN and a unfit permit for my chassis when I get a bit more done.(roller) I will let you know how it works out. If not this old cobbler will have give up his soul and become a heel.
Dave

[Alex]

who is the montreal guy? d&d cobras?

[David Sturch]

Alex,
You can read here.
Dave
First Canadian supercar to launch soon - Sympatico.ca Autos

[Dan]

Why not import that car as a race car, or race car chassis - for off road use only, which is exempt... and then once it is here work on getting a Vin #.

Competition Vehicle (i.e., Racing Car)
A vehicle designed for use exclusively in closedcourse
competition.

Note: A souped-up Porsche or Trans-Am is not a
competition car and would be subject to the
requirements outlined for a passenger car.

All Countries 15 years or older:
– No requirements.

Less than 15 years old:
– must bear a label affixed by the
manufacturer stating, in both official
languages, that the vehicle is a competition
vehicle and is for use exclusively in closedcourse
competition, or

– is accompanied by a signed declaration
clearly indicating that the vehicle is a
competition vehicle and is for use
exclusively in closed-course competition.


Problem solved.

[Chris Martino]

Originally Posted by pld0vr

Why not import that car as a race car, or race car chassis - for off road use only, which is exempt... and then once it is here work on getting a Vin #.

Competition Vehicle (i.e., Racing Car)
A vehicle designed for use exclusively in closedcourse
competition.

Note: A souped-up Porsche or Trans-Am is not a
competition car and would be subject to the
requirements outlined for a passenger car.

All Countries 15 years or older:
– No requirements.

Less than 15 years old:
– must bear a label affixed by the
manufacturer stating, in both official
languages, that the vehicle is a competition
vehicle and is for use exclusively in closedcourse
competition, or

– is accompanied by a signed declaration
clearly indicating that the vehicle is a
competition vehicle and is for use
exclusively in closed-course competition.


Problem solved.

With exception to 'way-old' replicas, all of these co-called "import types" fall under the same microscopic inspection and paperwork required to import via Transport Canada / Customs. I highly doubt anyone trying the race car method will encounter smooth sailing.


Chris

[Mark Charlton]

I don't have first-hand knowledge of this, but I am told by some old ex-racing friends that your approach has been done in Québec many years ago.

I don't think the border won't be much of an issue when importing a "race car" as they will likely stamp/brand the title of your vehicle as unsuitable for road-use (or something similar) and it will then be very hard (impossible?) to register at any Provincial license office. Of course, you can use the old "I built it from scratch in my garage" story but then they will ask for the receipts for all the parts you used so they can be sure you paid all the appropriate taxes and duties (and indeed didn't steal them). You will then need to swear an affidavit that your telling the truth about everything... and then they will seize your car, money and charge you with attempted fraud. After a few years of litigation you will negotiate a plea that results in the forfeiture of your car plus a fine. At least there will not be any jail time.

Mark

[Ian Clark]

Hi Mark, Chris and all fellow beaver tails,

For those of us afflicted with the dream of building / owning a replica of a signifigant and otherwise unobtainable super car who aren't encouraged by Transport Canadas' position on Kit Cars, have hope. I believe every vendor selling parts would gladly support a Government initiative that specifically allowed hand built automobiles.

This would of course require Transport Canada and those interested vendors to come up with a formula that protects the public intrest and yet retains the flair and passion of the original cars.

With a defined class of allowed cars there would actually be a replica industry in Canada, along with job creation, investment in retail and manufacturing, tax revenues for all levels of Government and a whole lot less confusion, animosity and subterfuge some have eluded to.

Each province has inspection and classifications for home built cars, that settles the putting it on the road issue. However Transport Canada would remain in control of safety as related to vehicle construction.

SEMA has simple classifications for these types of non mass produced cars. This has served as a template for many US States enacting legislation on what, by all counts, is a growing hobby.

I don't think we need an Act of Parliment to get this done, no existing laws need to be rewritten or new ones passed. A plain english (and french of course) guidance statement on Transport Canadas' website would clear the air.

Let the provinces take care of safety certificates like they already do, let Transport Canada satisfy themselves the cars are roadworthy to at least to provincial safety standards and let us have our dream cars!

I would be remiss not to reinforce the economic impact of a healthy vs non existent specialty car industry in Canada: A) new taxed annual sales in the tens of millions of dollars initially - growing to hundreds of millions B) Job creation and skills training in trades that are mostly aerospace, manufacturing and fabrication in nature, C) Export sales will grow exponentially, improving Canadas' balance of trade, D) Revenue for provincial coffers in HST, Income Tax, Corporate Tax, CPP, WCB. What's not to like?

Obviously more dialog and examination of the issues are required but this can be done quite easily in a spirit of co-operation and mutual respect. I keep my rose coloured glasses close by just for moments like these.

Cheers

[Chris Martino]

I totally agree Ian and Mark's comments are what the likely outcome would be. One would think that a cash infusion alone would get the attention of our government, even with their blinders still on.

However - where there is a will, there is a way. I'm sure there are dozens of clever ideas that have and continue to work the back door.

Should we make this an official yearly rant?


Chris

[clive]

Having read this topic from the beginning, and with no apparent changes in sight, has there been any resolution to the appeal in the Macro Auto Leasing/MOT case?

I would love to see an anti 'kit car' Gov lose. We don't have the same probs here in Aust, but we don't tend to import many of these kits. The Feds are fairly sensible, but the various States cause much agro with their interpretation of the (nationally) agreed standards.

Our cars are required to be signed off by authorised engineers, but there is no common songbook, so ADR/structural assessment is all over the place.

Generally, better off than you Canucks.

Clive

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Macro was found not guilty of criminal charges and the container that had been siezed was ordered returned after some years.

And upon opening the container, guess what??????

All in all, Transport Canada still ignores the court ruling but hey, they ARE the government so go figure?

[egoman/ Wedge]

Sell the plans for the space frame chassis and supply all the body and trim pieces. The car as a roller built in the country would be legal. Would it not? I realize this would hamper the mono chassis people but it would be a start. Good or bad.........take a few minutes and discuss it amongst yourselves.

[Ian Clark]

Thanks Clive for chimimng in, gov policy, interpretation and enforcement can be "all over the map" that's exactly why we have a non industry, frustrated buyer situation here.

Egoman, there have been several attempts to build GT40 replicas in Canada. They were all tube cars, usually knock-offs of someone elses work and none have been successfull.

It really comes back to government policy and customer confidence in that a product can be a) put on the road, b) anything else but price doesn't mattter.

If you can't import it you can't drive it. If it was entirely made here and was questionable if you could put it on the road due to emmissions, safety standards, inconsistant gov policy etc. it's still a no sale. Who's going to pony up the money to tool a GT40 under those circumstances?

There are a handfull of GT40s on the street in Canada, those lucky enough to have one lived through all kinds of anxieties to get it done. We need clear air to have happy (to buy) customers.

Still with my rose coloured glasses, I believe it can be worked out...

[Dave]

Too True Ian...

The following for hot rods, muscle and classic cars is pretty strong here in Canada.
GT40s would sellvery well here, as would other replicas.

The major players need to sit down and work out some kind of deal.... I'd be happy if they ran it like the UK. You can build whatever you want, if you want it on the road it has to pass an inspection which requires a certain standard of build.

Seems a fair way of doing it, which would ensure that wantever was built was safe.

[Mark Charlton]

Lots of good points and thoughts here, but the sad reality is there is no motivation on the part of the government to undertake the rules and regulations (and, I expect law changes) because the numbers don't make it an economic priority for them.

The current regime is very focused on popular actions that will positively (they feel) large percentages of the population. Our plight (which I am totally on-side with) will have relatively minimal real impact economically or politically. When was the last time any of us wrote our MPs about this issue?

There are ways to legally fulfill our GT40 desires, as many Canadians here can attest. Unfortunately, it just requires more perseverance, acrobatics, time and money than elsewhere.

Mark

[Ian Clark]

Good point Mark, if everyone in Canada who wanted to buy a GT40 replica emailed this thread to their Member of Parliment maybe someone would pick up the ball.

Typically Canada gets about ten percent of the world production of admissable supercars even though we're a small market by population and have a short driving season.

The size of the specialty car market in the US is huge, billions of dollars annually, we'd be on for ten percent of that if given a chance. That's a lot of jobs, lot of tax revenue and a new growth industry (for us).

The rod and custom industry here is doing ok, that's really the same game, just different replicas. What's the difference between a '32 Ford street rod with not one original 32 Ford part in it - and a '69 Ford GT40 replica?

This might be something that interested vendors could line up behind a group like SEMA. Doing so would lend credibilty and known statistics to the subject and approach to government.

Individually we don't have enough votes to influence an election, that's obvious. However a LOT of GOOD PRESS will come from new job creation, business start-ups, apprenticeships and export market sales. That kind of genuine success is important to the powers that be.

Cheers

[Chris Martino]

How about a 1977 Chevette with a 460 cid engine and wheely bars - street legal? Yes! According to the Canadian ministry of automobile insanity. I say this because I attended a local car meet recently where this unit was on display which had personal license plates to match!

I have seen what passes, anyone with any kind of car knowledge will look at these creations and laugh "how is that Chevette road legal"?

Good question.

What about some pressure SEMA?