Fuel Magnets - I want to perform some experiments

Ron Earp · 02-04-04, 08:47 PM

Well,

The fuel magnets got dragged back up and I'm biting. I want to test these things out and want to get some assitance. Now, as some of you know I'm a scientist and love to explore things. Some months ago a rather heated debate started about fuel magnets and it was never really settled. Now, I'd like to run some very controlled experiments and find out what the deal is.

Now, I don't have any of the magnets so I'd like for someone to loan me theirs to try. Why loan, why not buy them? Well, I want a set from someone who feels they are working. I don't want to purchase a set only to have people say "oh, wrong type", "yours are broke", "not the same kind", etc. I'll give you a $200 deposit and return them to you at the end of the experiments.

I will use a single cylinder test engine, a Robins OHV 11hp motor hooked to a generator. I'll put a load on the generator, a constant 1500 watts, and monitor cylinder head temp, gasoline temp, current output, outside air temp, and engine RPM during the test. My intentions are to use 1 gallon of gas per test and see how long the generator can run.

I intend to make sure all conditions are the same from run to run. We'll purchase the gas all at once so that it is from the same "lot" leading to no variations. I'll run 3-5 baseline runs before installing the magnets, then do a like number of runs with the magnets. Afterwards a through statistical analysis will follow to determine if there are any statistical differences (I'm a Analyitcal Chemist, my wife has BS in math, MS in statistics and a Ph.D. in management science so we'll get this right for sure). Sample size may have to be increased but we'll see how it goes.

If the fuel magnets are working as advertised then we'll get significantly longer run times with them installed. Now, I've never seen anything that says it won't work on carb engines so that should not be a problem. One person has told me that low tech domestic engines should respond well to the magnets so this engine should be the perfect choice, doesn't get much simplier.

So, anyone want to help me out with this?

R

**patbarry** · 02-04-04, 09:31 PM

Hey Ron, I did a search but couldn't find anything - what the heck are you talking about? Or maybe I'm just showing an incredible lack of knowledge...

Ron Earp · 02-04-04, 09:36 PM

Well, it actually started with JPs post on SprialMax and then sort of "Sprialed" out of control onto the fuel magnets.

Sprial Max Discussion

Fran Hall RCR · 02-04-04, 10:21 PM

Ron ...with all that spare time your GT40 must be completed and on the road already..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

VICTOR A · 02-04-04, 11:31 PM

Let me get this right about these tests for the magnets? This is going to be a scientific endeavor, right?
The air temp will be the same for every run, as well as the humidity?
If the test takes more the a few days the fuel will have aged in the container.
Will a commpresson test be made before every run as the engine will be wearing from run to run.
How about a fresh spark plug for every test and a clean air filter?
I did read about a fellow who bought every fuel saving gadgit on the market and he had to stop every few miles as the tank was over flowing.

Good Luck, Sic!
Vic

Howard Jones · 02-05-04, 01:20 AM

Ron, How about you fly out to Calif and do the tests at my house. While we are waiting for the fuel to run out do you think you would like to do a little body work. You know just a little sanding..........

You have far too much time on your hands pal.

Maxiboy · 02-05-04, 06:21 AM

Ron,

I don't know how difficult they are to fit/remove, but if instead of doing test runs of 3-5 with/without magnets you were to alternate them, then the effects of any wear/fuel degradation etc would be more equal, and possibly 'average' out in the long run.

Any sudden change in performance due to effects other than those you are trying to measure should still be apparent by comparing runs of the same type.

Max

Ron Earp · 02-05-04, 07:10 AM

Vic,

Any suggestions we'll gladly do. We can use a fresh spark plug every run, new filter, along with a fresh quart of oil every run. It is cheap and easy to do. While I do understand the effects of humidity and temp the effects are not so large over the variations we are likely to see - 5 F change over a few hours and 5-8% humidity change. That being said I think I'll run it in a closed garage with an exhaust pipe out the window. That should keep things almost flat - much better than the company can hope to see in real life on the cars!!!! At any rate, I think the test will be quite valid. Please send more suggestions!

No, as for spare time there isn't a lot. My wife and I bought a bigger house (and bigger garage) what we move into in March. But, that means my current garage has become the staging area - it is destroyed as a work area.

I'd have to plan for this test, but I can do it. But, you know, some things just "get to you" and you have to put them to rest. Heck, maybe we can publish the results. You never know - we might find out these things work. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

VICTOR A · 02-05-04, 08:49 AM

Ron, when I worked (this is no longer a problem) it was in the experimental fuel controls division of the Bendix corp.. The tests we ran were not to be believed. We even had a lab with dirt and sand from around the world to simulate injestion of foriegn materials in the fuel systems. We could do anything in the test cell an aircraft would incounter, altitude, extreme temps high or low,etc.
We made stuff for the SR71 Blackbird and a large amount of Jet fighters, so I guess we did O.K..

Vic

Ron Earp · 02-05-04, 08:54 AM

Wear on the motor - if that motor wears over a period of a few hours to the point where it affect fuel economy then we'll know it. Little motors like this run for years (think of your poor uncared for lawnmower engine) without a care. This one is just broken in, about 11 hours on the clock with fresh oil and bits. Ready to go.

And, we have a donor for magnets!

gt40.freak · 02-05-04, 09:54 AM

Hello Ron,

wish you more than luck with your experimental work - but I think it's just wasting time and money. This magnets come up again every few years, and I know they have been tested more than once by different car magazines and other organisations here in Germany, all with the same result:
You should better keep the money for them in your pocket - they don't work.
And believe me - with our high fuel prices here in Germany you could make a fortune if you have something to save fuel which is REALLY working.
But all items offered for this purpose didn't work. Only thing which may help is to keep your right foot very calm....
Regards,
Volker

Ron Earp · 02-05-04, 10:08 AM

Well, frankly, I don't think they work but I'm trying to be open. And, the cost to test them is just an afternoon of my time, and $30 of fuel and filters and oil. I agree with you though - if they worked as claimed Europe would be all over them!!

Howard Jones · 02-05-04, 12:57 PM

Soooo Ron, I guess this means you won't be helping me sand my car. Hey maybe I could SELL my sanded off body material by the ounce. You know the guys with 20" wheels on their granada station wagons could rub it on their fenders and "Real GT40 dust" would make them go faster.

I'm thinking maybe $19.95 plus shipping and handling at say another $19.95. I guess I should call the home shopping network right away. Would you be willing to conduct a back to back test on that? Maybe the Sierra club would fund a couple of track days at Las Vegas speedway AND help me finish sanding my car. You got a granada?

Now hows that for a friendly idea?

Brian Kissel · 02-05-04, 01:27 PM

Howard !!
How much would the shipping and handling for the original dust be to Michigan ??? Please pack some sunshine and warmth in with it. It is colder than heck up here. We have between 24-30 inches of snow on the ground, depending on where you check. Also, perhaps ebay would be a outlet for your original dust. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Regards Brian

Howard Jones · 02-05-04, 03:09 PM

Now that would be Cal-lee-four-na GT40 dust. That would be a premium brand because the aformentiond granada would not have to put on snow chains to achieve increased performance.
Its sunny outside, low 60's and light breeze. he he eh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Keith · 02-05-04, 03:51 PM

Ron,
Although I think this is a real waste of time; I will offer a suggestion so you don't waste as much time. Buy a 1000 ml graduated burett from a chemical supply house (or borrow one from the local high school chemistry lab) and hook it up with a fuel line to be your fuel supply to the engine. With the engine running watch for the fuel to pass the 1000 ml mark then time it with a stop watch untill it goes past the 0 ml level. Do it with magenets and with out a few times. You should get your results much faster and probably more accurate.
You may want to do this several feet away from the engine with a long fuel line to ensure that the burett is far enough from the engine to not catch fire.
You can just keep "topping off" the burett with fuel and do continuous runs to verify your results.
Keith

dave harris · 02-05-04, 04:33 PM

Ron, since you're an analytical chemist (caveat here - I'm NOT, I'm an electrical engineer - but I work for Varian, Inc. in their analytical instruments business along with Farhad Faili (Mass Spec's)) do you think we could see any "differences" in the fuel itself after exposure to the "magnets magic" if we were to do some chromatographic/MS testing?

Dave Harris

Ron Earp · 02-05-04, 08:30 PM

No, I don't think there will be any difference at all. None. Nada. I'd just like to do the experiment to say I did it, did it correctly, and to settle the issue. Maybe it is personal, but I would just like to see it laid to rest. I know you folks mean well in saying don't waste the time, but it isn't that much time and things like this, to me, are fun. I love to investigate things and the more unprobabable the better.

ChrisL · 02-06-04, 08:54 AM

Ron,

A suggestion on how to eliminate external variations such as engine wear, temperature change, fuel condition etc...

Perform a series of back-to-back tests, alternating between runs with and without magnets.

The theory is that the above mentioned variations will occur in a smooth and somewhat predictable manner, resulting in a smooth performance curve varying only as a result of the external factors. Your final analysis would therefore not look at absolute values, but for performance “spikes” in the curves corresponding to the times when the magnets were added.

I suspect that I’m going a little overboard here, but I love this sort of stuff too, and it seems that you have the mathematical know-how to pull it off. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Chris