F1 is boring me to death!!!!

[David Morton]

Not so. A1Gp certainly do that but F1 is as it has been for the last few years. Fuel invariably takes the most time on a pit stop and, theoretically, the V8 may need slightly less than the V10 engine did. I cant think how the pit stop regime will change that much.

[Chris P.]

Aren't the clutches already smaller then 4" diameter? And they don't run a flywheel - is that really the limiting factor on engine CG height? Wheelbases can be shorter - there's a significant change.

[DavidTC]

Maybe we have been looking at different rules?. F1 starts to look a little like A1 this year. You haven't addressed my other heat soak points, launch control, smaller diameter clutch assemblies. Remember the temperature spike at take up depends on the heat capacity of the materials involved and their mass (ie volume x sg). If you reduce a clutch assembly diameter from 5in to 4in (even if you keep the plate thickness the same) say you can do the math yourself; temperature spikes get bigger.

[David Morton]

I will enquire if the new clutch systems can accept these
so called temp spikes and if they are much different from the V10 . However I would not really expect an answer from the team I am associated with. You may have a reasonably valid point but the clutch system and the gearbox on any F1 car , especially on the R26, are, by and large, not talked about very much.

[DavidTC]

David
We may well be associated with the same F1 teams!; however essentially all of the teams buy in their 'clutch' expertiise from two well known sources. My main point is that 'more' driver intervention (less electronic control) and less 'stiff' drivetrain components may well throw up some interesting mechanical failures earlier rather than later. Why don't we agree 'to watch this space'.
Regards
David

[David Morton]

David,
Just from an interest point of view, will your CAV have ceramic brakes and if so, how much would it cost(as an example, to retro fit on a GTD). Can you briefly expand on what the advantages are?
David

[DavidTC]

David
Not initially, having never owned a GT40 before I would like to gain some road and track experience before I go to Carbon -ceramics BUT they are fitted on the Ferrari currently as a hybrid Carbon-ceramics front, steel rears. This would suit most applications and at least the GT40's have a brake bias adjeustment already fitted and no ABS. The advantages are tunable COF. Most steel couples have a COF of around 0.35, the carbon ceramics can be tuned in the range 0.35-0.60. The later is great for track addicts; you can brake 10m later into a typical corner but they are a bit extreme for road use.(For comparison purposes F1 uses C/C with COF of 0.5 or so(at 500 C hence the parade lap) but virtually zero COF at room temp let alone-20 C).The COF of Carbon -ceramics is essentially flat from -20 to extreme temperatures
The second advantage is virtually zero disk wear so it is likely that you will not need to replace disks during a typical ownership.The most important advantage however is greatly reduced unsprung mass (and of course rotating mass). FInally there is the not inconsiderable advantage of essentially zero corrosion bridging. WE all know of people who put their cars away wet get an oxide bridge build up between pad and disk and then either cannot get the car out of the garage or damage both pads and disks. Indeed Porsche now do not warranty their brake disks pads for owners who do very few miles.
The disadvantages of Carbon-ceramics are firstly cost; several times that of a steelbased systems. Secondly a slightly more complicated bell design to cope with the fact that the disk has essentially zero Cof expansion compared to steel/AL so the bobbin design is a bit more complicated.
For many of us even if we are in the game it is often a lifestyle statement (equivalent if you like to having Ti headed golf drivers), they will not make you a better driver, they almost certainly exceed the average drivers capabilities BUT they look nice, improve the handling of the car and improve your driving style options;F1 hoever is a different matter. Although FIA removed braking as an area of competetive advantage and this stopped the introductoion of these mataerials into F1, since the current materials C/C (Carbon-carbon) are beyond their capabilities the situation is likely to change in the next few years.
Regardes
David

[Paul Brameld]

Hi David,
In addition to the benefits mentioned by David,there is the small matter of unsprung weight reduction.Quite a saving by using CC or Ceramic discs.
Cheers
Paul

[DavidTC]

Paul
Just to point out I did cover this.
Regards
David
PS Ron I hope you note that the website perhaps understates the vital importance of Chemistry/Materials as a discipline both to road going and race cars. It's not just the obvious ones of fuel and oil developments but all of the composite materials now so vital for many applications where outright performance is a key driver.

[DavidTC]

Looking at the post I should have parhaps also emphasised the big advantage of carbon-ceramics for track applications ,namely the essential constancy of mu with temperature. Repeated heavy braking applications with steel based systems often leads to fade,(even if the brake fluid doesn't boil), since mu for a steel based system actually decreases with temperature. If you are racing the last thing you want is fade !.
David

[David Morton]

David,
Numerous advantages as you list above. The operating temperature band is especially impressive. Will they ever be on production cars or am I dreaming about altruistic manufacturers ?
David M

[DavidTC]

David
It's difficult to beat steel for production cars since cost rather than performance is the driver. The process technologies for manufacture of carbon-ceramics are difficult and not easily copied; and remember that you still require C fibre as one component of the design. Despite it's high profile and uses in a variety of important applications from military to civilain airlines, F1, exotic cars , sports goods, golf shafts, volting poles, rowing hulls,tennis racquets etce etc, the world production of C fibre is still in the region of 100,000 tonnes.This is orders of magnitude smaller than steel so costs have not really come down. It is more likely that in addition to exotic cars and motorsport the first applications of regular vehicles will be in trucks ,trams and v high speed trains, where the high parasitic weight penalty of carrying steel around is environmentally unfriendly. Change in road taxing etc could therefore be a big driver. The TGV could run at 400kph with 2 carbon ceramic disks per axle at a tenth of the weight of the 400 kilo steel disks (4) per axle that currently restricts the top speed to 320 kph.
David

[David Morton]

David,
I meant to ask - DTCPilot - what do you fly?
David M

[DavidTC]

Think Italian !

[David Morton]

It looks as there may be an imminent showdown between the GPMA (the breakaway group) and Moseley. He has told them that there is a ten-day window to sign up for 2008 or be excluded. The current Concorde agreement finishes in 2007. The GPMA have, so far, only responded that they don’t care for Moseley's threats. The ten day window is from March 23rd (2006).

[Simon]

Just out of interest, did you know max mosely was the son of oswald mosely? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[David Morton]

One of the biggest turkeys of the 20th Century.
Like father................

[David Morton]

ITV.com/f1 are about to host Q & A session [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dead_horse.gif[/img]with James Allen. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/zzzzz.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/zzzzz.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/zzzzz.gif[/img]
You can field questions in advance if you want. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beat.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bash.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flamer.gif[/img]
IN FACT - YOU SHOULD.
Did you know that Murray Walker will be back this year on Radio 5 Live. Reasons to be cheerful part 3. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif[/img]

[David Morton]

Some of the news items in the last few days:

1. Talk of Schumaker starting new team with VW/Audi group.
2. Hockenheim is on this year despite financial woes.
3. McLaren went quickest in Valencia on Friday.
4. Ecclestone wants a return to Las Vegas for USGp.
5. Renault will support Alonso 100% to the end of 2006.
6. Silverstone faces re design. Club and Vale turns may go.
7. 21 days remaining to Bahrein then the B/S stops. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif[/img]