Biting the hand that feeds you/shot you.

[Pete.]

Well, I've been labelled a redneck and arrogant for posting a news item and asking forum members their opinion.
Chrisl and Kim, I don't think personal attacks does anything to advance your argument.
However I have a very thick skin so if calling me an arrogant redneck makes you feel better go ahead.
I think both of you should visit New York and Take a look at where the Twin Towers used to be.

[Gregg]

Originally Posted by Pete

I think both of you should visit New York and Take a look at where the Twin Towers used to be.

Can't agree more!

[Bill Hara]

What has the TT got to do with it?

Other than using that shocking attack as a catalyst for attacking Afghanistan and Iraq which is all to do with MONEY, no weapons of mass destruction, no evidence of anything else, hell Bush was having dinner with Bin Ladens brother at the time...
The TT attack was either a HUGE F***UP by NORAD in that it took an hour for it to scramble a single jet into the air - when every training run they have EVER done they have multiple jets in the air within 8 minutes????? Or it was an inside job if you believe the conspiracy theorists.
Ultimately, as a result of those attacks, approx 3500 people died tragically in the US, but tens of thousands have died in Afghanistan and Iraq - including soldiers from all our nations.
Why the human toll? Why send soldiers halfway around the world to kill and be killed? Of what benefit is it to anyone? It hasn't made the world safer, our civil liberties have been reduced, our governments have more power over us now than any time since conscription was abolished. We are losing our freedoms and we seem to be happy about it??
Occupation in the Middle East has made a rod for our backs, given reasons for fighting to the locals thus perpetrating these horrendous attacks. It won't be easy getting out but then again if private enterprise are making money from it, maybe they don't want to leave or make it easy to leave.

Now I'm not attacking anyone here, everyone is entitled to their opinion, whatever it may be and wherever it may have derived from - but if current trends continue, we may not have our right to vocalise our opinion either.

[Pete.]

So what is your solution? Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let both places descend into civil war? I think that would cost a lot more lives.

[Kim Petersen]

Originally Posted by Pete

I think both of you should visit New York and Take a look at where the Twin Towers used to be.

Pete: Now we both know that I never called you a redneck; oddly enough, you 'labeled' yourself that in your first post, so your sense of insult is somewhat bewildering. Granted, I did say that you were arrogant, such as when you pronounce those in disagreement with you as undoubtedly being ignorant civilians, absent your military experience. That is as wrong as it is arrogant.

I must also profess to finding your most recent post somewhat disingenuous when you say, "I've been labelled a redneck and arrogant for posting a news item and asking forum members their opinion". Remember that your email that started this thread did more than simply post a news item; it also opined that: "Now I am unashamedly a right wing red neck, ex Army Officer, so I am a little biased. But if I were in control, which some of you will think thank God he is not, I would put them on the first plane back to Iraq." That smells of an opinion, and your several follow-on posts have never been lacking in same.

As to your (and Gregg's) thoughtful recommendations, I would venture to guess that I knew more people who died in the Twin Towers than either of you. That's a guess, mind you, and if I'm wrong, then please accept my sincere apology. I do remember vividly, however, that as I was preparing my lecture at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia, the first plane hit the North Tower at 1 World Trade. And it wasn't lost on me that a dozen or so colleagues and friends worked in there and in the South Tower, which was hit 18 minutes later. I have returned to that hallowed ground many times since, so your invitation is not necessary, thanks all the same.

You both also speak as though you have personal experience in Iraq. I must admit to not having been in Baghdad since early 2007 (having first 'visited' 15-years earlier in 1991), but surely things haven't changed that much since then. If it has, maybe you guys can help me to better understand. As for me, the anger and lingering bitterness of 9/11 has never diminished; it is why I am in my present job. The memories of a savage attack and the lost friends has never ebbed.

But for the life of me, those memories notwithstanding, I cannot fathom the willingness of some people to economize the value of the lives of certain people simply because they are, by accident of birth, denizens of a war zone, and perhaps more damning – an Arab war zone. The family in that bus didn't ask for Saddam Hussein, 9/11, or the invasion of their country. And does anyone really believe that they deliberately ignored an order to stop? (In fact, the International Herald Tribune reports that they may have already stopped when one soldier inexplicably fired into their van. At best, the facts are unclear, which is why courts – civilian or military – are the best arbiters of truth in such matters.) And do we really need to detail the undisputed physical devastation that family suffered?

More important, though, is not the particulars of this sad incident; tragically, this sort of event is all too common in places where civilians and soldiers come in contact. The difference is that usually everyone dies and there are fewer 'complications' in any after action report. What caused me to comment in the first place was what I saw as remarkable callousness – a lack of simple humanity – in the comments from a few of our GT40 brethren. It surprised me, and I would have hoped for better.

Kim

[Russ Noble]

Originally Posted by Pete

So what is your solution? Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let both places descend into civil war? I think that would cost a lot more lives.

Yeah but that would be their lives and their choices.

Are you worried about their lives?

More likely the region's oil? There's plenty of other countries killing their citizens in civil wars etc and no one has felt the need to send in 'peace keeping' forces or to overthrow their rulers. And when did anyone have a mandate to save people from themselves?

Moving into Iraq was/is a massive military and PR cockup. How the hell they're going to be able to get out of that one I just don't know. But get out they must.

If a foreign power, not necessarily the US, was to invade Oz to give themselves access to uranium and other mineral supplies, after devastating a few key military targets and destroying the infrastructure, then publicly proclaiming 'we know that tens of thousands of you wanted to see your PM gone, now everybody should thank us...' as they patrolled the streets in armoured cars, and killed and maimed any of the populace that came too close. What would you be doing Pete?

Carrying on as normal?

I bet not! I bet you'd be breaking out your private arsenal and forming a guerilla group to fight the invaders. You and all your like minded mates, and me too if it happened here, would eventually beat them or at least prevent them from taking total control. They would never make you, or your children, or your grandchildren cower down to them! You would continue to fight them. Right?

So think about your Iraqi equivalent.

Cheers,

[Pete.]

Kim, you are right in my original post I did proclaim my red neckedness and bias, in an attempt to balance what I said knowing that this would be an inflammatory subject.
We are a bit funny in Australia, I can call myself a stupid arrogant redneck, but when someone else does then its time to put the gloves on.
Contradictory I know, but we are a weird mob.
I have never been to either Afghanistan or Iraq, but I have served my country in a war zone, if your look at my Avatar you might figure it was in the sixties.

Russ, one of the best posts on this subject so far. I don't agree with all of it, but well said.

[David S.]

Pete,
You are entitled to your opinion. I take everything I read on the blogs with a grain of salt. The fight is for our way of life even though it is based on energy.(oil) If it was for peoples rights NATO would have done a better job in Africa. I look at the history of the middle east and not much has changed.
Dave

[woodz428]

I don't know about Australia, but the U.S. or any other country I am aware of declared WAR. You can't put troops in a sovereign country and just call it a war zone. Maybe other countries can,but our Constitution (which is apparently an obstacle for many) requires it. From my perspective, the situation has many elements that were created by the invasion and toppling of the leader of the regime, which we set up. If it was a WAR zone as it is referred to, then those problems could happen and that would be a terrible by-product of war. But without a declaration of war, we are just a bunch of renegades. Attempting to install something that they don't want and we have little knowledge of how it will work. I wish the people in the U.S. were as concerned with our rights as those of every podunk country they want to bully. Let Australia handle it however they want, we have enough of those problems we have generated ourselves.There are many sides in that conflict and they are all natives of the country, they don't agree amongst themselves, yet we are attemptoing to take a side. ANY side we take will be against the other sides, which builds coalitions.In that arena it will be a violent one.Plus, no matter what side we support, if they don't do as we wish, they too will be overturned.

[ChrisL]

Originally Posted by Pete

So what is your solution? Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let both places descend into civil war? I think that would cost a lot more lives.

I remember saying on this forum many years ago that I believed that invading Iraq was only likely to make things worse. So much so that it would probably take an entire generation before we could say that the situation was back to where it was before we got involved.

But to answer your question, there have been many solutions put forward by many people who know far more about the regions problems than you or I (or our government) will ever know, but unfortunately there are/were certain people in power who just don't/didn't want to listen to them because they don't fit the simplistic Hollywood scenario of good guy kills bad guy and we all go home after the credits.

By the way, I don't think that I actually called anyone a redneck.

[Gregg]

Originally Posted by kepetersen

As to your (and Gregg's) thoughtful recommendations, I would venture to guess that I knew more people who died in the Twin Towers than either of you. That's a guess, mind you, and if I'm wrong, then please accept my sincere apology. I do remember vividly, however, that as I was preparing my lecture at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia, the first plane hit the North Tower at 1 World Trade. And it wasn't lost on me that a dozen or so colleagues and friends worked in there and in the South Tower, which was hit 18 minutes later. I have returned to that hallowed ground many times since, so your invitation is not necessary, thanks all the same.

You both also speak as though you have personal experience in Iraq. I must admit to not having been in Baghdad since early 2007 (having first 'visited' 15-years earlier in 1991), but surely things haven't changed that much since then. If it has, maybe you guys can help me to better understand. As for me, the anger and lingering bitterness of 9/11 has never diminished; it is why I am in my present job. The memories of a savage attack and the lost friends has never ebbed.

But for the life of me, those memories notwithstanding, I cannot fathom the willingness of some people to economize the value of the lives of certain people simply because they are, by accident of birth, denizens of a war zone, and perhaps more damning – an Arab war zone. The family in that bus didn't ask for Saddam Hussein, 9/11, or the invasion of their country. And does anyone really believe that they deliberately ignored an order to stop? (In fact, the International Herald Tribune reports that they may have already stopped when one soldier inexplicably fired into their van. At best, the facts are unclear, which is why courts – civilian or military – are the best arbiters of truth in such matters.) And do we really need to detail the undisputed physical devastation that family suffered?

More important, though, is not the particulars of this sad incident; tragically, this sort of event is all too common in places where civilians and soldiers come in contact. The difference is that usually everyone dies and there are fewer 'complications' in any after action report. What caused me to comment in the first place was what I saw as remarkable callousness – a lack of simple humanity – in the comments from a few of our GT40 brethren. It surprised me, and I would have hoped for better.

Kim

Kim,

Where does one begin. I believe you once again have made assumptions.

Your reply, to me at least, rings of smugness and your own arrogance. You speak of loss of life and state: "I would venture to guess that I knew more people who died in the Twin Towers than either of you" and "I was preparing my lecture at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia, the first plane hit the North Tower at 1 World Trade", and "And it wasn't lost on me that a dozen or so colleagues and friends worked in there and in the South Tower, which was hit 18 minutes later " .

Well, if you lost ten friends, and I only lost four, do your words ring more true than mine? How about if you lost ten friends and I lost one relative. Does my family relationship trump the number of friends you lost? So someone who professes to have so much compassion for human life, I would think ONE person caught up in Sept. 11th would be more than enough. Your service in the Fedearl Law Enforcement is appreciated, and I thank you for it, but please bear in mind that it does not elevate you above anyone else. Please accept my condolences on the loss of your friends. As a lifelong resident and NATIVE New Yorker I appreciate your sentiments.

"You both also speak as though you have personal experience in Iraq. I must admit to not having been in Baghdad since early 2007 (having first 'visited' 15-years earlier in 1991), but surely things haven't changed that much since then. If it has, maybe you guys can help me to better understand."

Kim, I have no experience in Iraq. I have no idea where my post remotely suggests same. Although you may have had boots on the ground for the military which I will not assume you had, does it lessen my point about a soldiers right to self preservation?? I think not. Things haven't changed in Bagdad since 1991 and guess what, they probably haven't changed much since the beginning of time. Its history is one of hostility and unfortunately, it will most likely remain a hostile environment during my grandchildren and great grandchildren's lives. That is of course, if the area is not nuked first. Hatred is passed down from generation to generation. How do you suppose to counter that?

You go on to further state: "

But for the life of me, those memories notwithstanding, I cannot fathom the willingness of some people to economize the value of the lives of certain people simply because they are, by accident of birth, denizens of a war zone, and perhaps more damning – an Arab war zone." Who has done that??

"The family in that bus didn't ask for Saddam Hussein, 9/11, or the invasion of their country. And does anyone really believe that they deliberately ignored an order to stop?" Again, where was this reported?? Do you have access to intelligence that we do not? To me, you appear to be fabricating facts/assumptions to support your position.
For all you know, the Saadi's worshipped Sadam. It is all irrelevant. Bottom line is, if the Saadi's failed to heed the Diggers order to stop, the Diggers were probably justified in firing upon the vehicle.

I'm surprised that my "Redneck" buddy is not outraged that the Diggers were such lousy shots and only wounded two of the occupants of the vehicle. Perhaps Australia should remove their troops from Iraq and train them better.

I'll go make the popcorn now and await my lashing.

[Pat Buckley]

Thanks Gregg.

[Iron Sheik]

Now I understand why Russ's last name is Noble(NOBEL). WELL SAID, sir

Natzi Pete, how can Russ be from the same country as you?!!

Gregg, make some popcorn for me, I will bring the Lash,,,YOU WILL LIKE it

[Gregg]

Originally Posted by Faili F

Now I understand why Russ's last name is Noble(NOBEL). WELL SAID, sir

Natzi Pete, how can Russ be from the same country as you?!!

Gregg, make some popcorn for me, I will bring the Lash,,,YOU WILL LIKE it

Falli, based upon your avatar, I made you a bucket without butter. I hope that is okay. When should I expect you?

[Freewheel]

We have the opportunity to put our opinions here and share them with everyone.

I think that's something for which we can all be very thankful.


I am not familiar with the particulars of the incident that brought this family their current situation, but based on the Standard Operating Procedures that I was trained to, together with my experience on similar ground, I'm comfortable with my post, twee though it was.


I have to say this also. I was aware at the time I posted it that other wouldn't agree and it would probably get me flamed, but what's the point of having your own opinion if you didn't express it for fear people wouldn't like it?

A lot of people didn't like Abraham Lincoln's opinion on slavery, but wouldn't you agree that it's been a good thing? A lot of people thought Winston Churchill's 1940 opinion that fight was better than flight was ridiculous, but wouldn't quite a few Brits agree that it was fighting then that gave the US a base for europe and didn't that work out rather well?


I rather doubt I'll be seen as a visionary for my post, but I'm OK with that. I know that the world isn't fair, I know that compassion is not an ideal either, but a normal emotion. Once the incident took place, compassion took this family to Australia and if they choose to take legal action, well that's not fair on those who showed them compassion, but if the law allows it, that's just how it is. If life was an ideal the good wouldn't die young, the useless and lazy wouldn't get redundancy packages and I could afford to call Fran and say "One of each thanks". I know I have to deal with situations as they arise, rather than wallow in outrage and pity. Can all of us do that?

[Pete.]

Originally Posted by Faili F

Now I understand why Russ's last name is Noble(NOBEL). WELL SAID, sir

Natzi Pete, how can Russ be from the same country as you?!!

Gregg, make some popcorn for me, I will bring the Lash,,,YOU WILL LIKE it

Wow, not only am I an arrogant red neck now I am also a Natzi (sic). What next Pete the ripper? Or was that Jack?
The first sign of someone losing an argument is name calling, Faili I have shown you respect I am sorry that it is not reciprocated.

You will note that I also congratulated Russ on his post.