jumbo acceleration query

Just to settle a discussion and as I'm sure some of you will know the answers.

On AVERAGE, whats the time from standing start to takeoff speed?

Distance travelled for takeoff?

Speed at take off? (which I think is about 225mph /360k)..

Thanks all...

(all for 747)
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Paul - rough figures for the 747-400: At 400 tons (396 really) time to Vr (rotate speed ) in still air and say +15c and 1013mb (Sea Level) would be approximately 40 to 45 seconds. Distance travelled from standing start approx 9.500ft to 10,000ft. Speed would be in the order of 175 to 180 Knots (201 - 207 mph). Tires are speed rated as well which could become a limiting factor at High elevations but the WAT limit (Weight, alt, and temperaure) will normally overide that. Most take offs are using derate which then depends on Runway length as well so it becomes an open ended question with a meaningless answer.
 

Pat Buckley

GT40s Supporter
For comparison:

For some weird reason I used to time the take off rolls - planes involved were DC-9 and 737 mainly. Shortest roll was about 18 seconds and the longest about 30 seconds.

I have no clue what kind of weights were involved and most of them were at sea level.

FWIW.
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
As an example London Heathrow northern runway (27R/09L) is about 2.5 miles long and the southern (27L/O9R) is 2.3 miles. This is known as the TORA (Take Off Run Available) and these days normally expressed in metres. On the longer trips, most prudent chaps tend to squeeze every metre they can by lining up as close as possible to the end of the runway (facing the right way of course) [I digress as I lined up facing the 'wrong' way in Jersey once for a display with a DHC6 Twin Otter]
Instuctors usually have an acid comment that runway behind you is totally wasted.
Enough.....
Pat - if you tare timing in a 747 and get to 45 seconds, put your head between your legs........
You know what to do then.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Dave

So where in the take of run at somewhere like Heathrow do you get to the point of no return / what is shortest stopping distance from 200mph?

Also is the acceleration fairly uniform from the zero to 200?

Amazing site with so much info available!

Ian
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
The point at which you can safely reject the take off is predicated on the runway length and the runway conditions (wet or dry). Clearly if a runway had infinite length, an aeroplane could accelerate to the rotate speed (Vr) and stop again without coming to grief. Equally on a very short runway the decision speed (V1) would have to be very low and approaching the minimum control speed Vmca. In the dry situation on 27L
I would think a 747-400 at 396 tons would have a decision speed (V1dry) of 150Knots (ish) and in the wet scenario (V1wet)about 135 ish.
Stopping on a dry runway assumes usually some sort of engine problem and prior to departure, the 'handler' (Pilot Handling) will decide on using the autobrake (which is set to RTO [REJECTED TAKE OFF]) and how he would like the 'non handler'(You've guessed it) to manage the thrust levers. My brief was always "give me the maximum of everything you can to safely stop this thing and if it looks as though it's not enough, give me more' (I'd rather go off the side of most runways with asymmetry than go off the end into the approach lights).
How quickly does it stop? The harness is a five point and you will be hanging in your harness. I've heard a figure of 4g+ retardation bandied around but I have no way of verifying that. With all wheel brakes in RTO , all thrust reversers operating, and a moderate headwind, I think somewhere around 1000 to 1200 metres to a complete stop. The loss of an engine does produce an asymmetry problem and some guys don't want the opposite side engine to be used in reverse which sometimes puzzled me but I think you can add about 25-30% to that stopping distance for an engine failure. The brakes would be quite hot from a Max energy stop and the tires would deflate (a safety feature on most passenger aeroplanes) but not until you have cleared the runway onto a taxiway.
The acceleration is very gentle to begin with but gradually keeps building.
One way to guage this was to straddle the centre line lights with the nose wheels and during the roll, gently move laterally to feel the lights. Always a good trick if there was someone in 1st class you didn't really care for.
Like Bernie or his mate, the sexmadman. What was his name again?
 
Last edited:

Pat Buckley

GT40s Supporter
396 tons, Jesus!

I remember a TV show called "Wings" that did a series called "first flights".... it was really interesting. Anyway one of the segments was on the 747 and the show followed the plane from concept to first flight, including some of the flight testing.

One of the tests included scraping the hell out of the tail on take-off. Plenty of sparks.

The most memorable test was a fully loaded landing and stop without using thrust reversers. If I remember correctly the plane had to land and stop just using the brakes. The plane then had to sit for a specified length of time after coming to a stop and the resulting brake fire (!) had to burn - again for a specified period of time - before the fire engines could put it out.
 
David will appreciate this - In earlier years when constantly hopping from job site to job site,I was returning to New England one evening from Atlanta.Aircraft was a loaded 727.Pilot was in a hurry to make up sched time and did run up on the taxiway just pulling onto runway and going for it.I was waiting for the increasing G force but it stayed quite linear.I rationalized that it was due to loading but in my gut I knew we had a problem.I couldn't believe this guy was going ahead with the takeoff.We ate up a lot of runway(mind you,this is the old configuration of Atlanta) before he tried to rotate but it was obvious it wasn't going to leave the runway.At that point the nose came down, the clam shells came out and max thrust applied.You mentioned the G force throwing you forward against the belts - you were not exaggerating;with engines screaming,brakes juddering and the aircraft lurching trying to stop,I was wondering how much runway was left.Just at that point the warning strips flashed by.Now the plane was finally stopping but suddenly the pilot abruptly turned left.As the plane turned it almost went onto the right wingtip but stayed on the wheels.It was then I saw the containment barriers out my right side window,not more than a few yards in front of us - the pilot had done just as you indicated and turned into the emergency area toward open field in an effort to avoid the barrier. The plane stopped right there with a lurch,engines momentarily still in full reverse.Immediately after throttle down,the co-pilot made a run for the lavatory. Turns out we were trying to take off with two engines pulling forward and one in reverse.The cockpit indicator had shown all reversers in retracted position so pilot thought he was good to go.When stopping he had all 3 in the right direction. The only quicker stop that I can remember was a head-on crash. David,that 4G figure seems realistic. A.J.
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Very lucky boy Al. This is often the most critical phase and with loads of fuel on board in tanks that the lights on steel or concrete poles at the other end can easily tear apart. Statistically , always sit near the forward doors in an aisle seat. It's somewhere near the Pilots and if it's a survivable accident, they are usually leading the running race. Away from the site.
Dont worry about sitting near the overwing hatches, the rear doors or depending on the aeroplane, the ventral staircase. If it burns - thats where the passengers who
didn't get out are usually piled up. (Manchester B737.200 with a rejected take off )
Skybrary - B737, British Airtours, AW FIRE, Manchester UK, 1985
 
Back
Top