While you were busy whining about politics...

[Mike]

These Men were putting it out there. What would you be willing to fight for? Do you have any fight in you to begin with? Not subscribing don't care. Pontificate away from your cozy couches.

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[Pete McCluskey.]

Plenty of people on this forum who served their country Mike. Some with distinction, they may have earned their right to talk politics from their couch.

 

[Pat]

I put thirty years in Mike, how about you?

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I put in no years. I went through a preinduction physical and was so blind they rejected me. (this was decades before Lasik)

So I finished college, went to medical school, went into emergency medicine, and spent all of my professional life taking care of anyone who came in the door, rich or poor, drunk or sober, healthy or with HIV.And I'm still doing it.

But I didn't put on a uniform, or go overseas, or carry a firearm. So I guess I'm not entitled to an opinion on anything. Have I got it right? And I'm not a hero, because I'm not shooting at anyone. I got it. It took me a while.

Oh- and in my generation (I'm sixty) we got drafted, we didn't have a choice. Seems to me that makes a difference. I wouldn't have had a choice. I'm just glad that I didn't have to go in, and that they didn't send me to Viet Nam, which was just a stupid a war as the two we're in now.

 

[Bob Fechter]

The "evil" Richard Nixon eliminated the draft, and it made the military infinitely better by eliminating the dregs who didn't want to be there.

 

[Jim Craik]

The "evil" Richard Nixon eliminated the draft, and it made the military infinitely better by eliminating the dregs who didn't want to be there.

Dregs?..................dregs?

Mr Fechter, you have made many, many, rude, unsupportable, ignorant statements here on our fourm, this is one of the most egregious.

A large portion of the military in WWII were drafted, were they also DREGS????

Give us some idea how you can make such a statement, were you there?


Then please go away!

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Hey Bob, you're a fucking asshole. Some of those "dregs"- Dewitt Brown, Steve Cussons, just to name two that I knew- were people I knew in high school and college who were drafted and went and did their duty. And they died there and their names are on the memorial wall downtown in DC. You're a shitbag and an ignorant jackass. And you're a coward. You think everyone that was drafted didn't do their duty? Guess again, Bob. Some people didn't like it but they did what their country asked them to do. And a lot of them died doing it. And some came home crippled. And all because they did their duty. You aren't fit to lick the soles of their boots, Bob. "Dregs" indeed.

Kind of like you, Bob. Your country asked you to be a blind and deaf Nazi moron, and by God you've answered the call and done your best. Well done, mate.

Oh- they DIDN'T ask you to do that? You did it on your own? Well- what do you know. You must LIKE doing it. And before I forget, Nixon was one of the first presidents to come up with the idea of universal health care insurance, which you would think was fine, if it were done by a Republican.

Bob, do us all a favor. Get in your GT40, if you even have one, fill up the tanks, and wrap yourself around a tree and silence yourself. You'll make a lot of folks happy and you can be with your buddy Breitbart. Have fun. You ungrateful son of a bitch.

 

[Bob Fechter]

The dregs I'm referring to are the ones that bitched the whole time they were in service, undermined their commanders and spread discontent amongst their fellow troops.

Of course there were hundreds of thousands of drafted men who met their duty with honor and dignity, but there were thousands of malcontents who got too many of the good guys killed by their utter hatred for the system.

Your exaggerations are naive, and you can ask any active soldier if they wish draftees were back in the service. give it a try.

 

[Jim Craik]

Hey Bob, you're a fucking asshole. Some of those "dregs"- Dewitt Brown, Steve Cussons, just to name two that I knew- were people I knew in high school and college who were drafted and went and did their duty. And they died there and their names are on the memorial wall downtown in DC. You're a shitbag and an ignorant jackass. And you're a coward. You think everyone that was drafted didn't do their duty? Guess again, Bob. Some people didn't like it but they did what their country asked them to do. And a lot of them died doing it. And some came home crippled. And all because they did their duty. You aren't fit to lick the soles of their boots, Bob. "Dregs" indeed.

Kind of like you, Bob. Your country asked you to be a blind and deaf Nazi moron, and by God you've answered the call and done your best. Well done, mate.

Oh- they DIDN'T ask you to do that? You did it on your own? Well- what do you know. You must LIKE doing it. And before I forget, Nixon was one of the first presidents to come up with the idea of universal health care insurance, which you would think was fine, if it were done by a Republican.

Bob, do us all a favor. Get in your GT40, if you even have one, fill up the tanks, and wrap yourself around a tree and silence yourself. You'll make a lot of folks happy and you can be with your buddy Breitbart. Have fun. You ungrateful son of a bitch.

Come on Jim, tell us how you really feel.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

What do you know? Were you there? I don't think you were. Are you even old enough to have been there?

And your remark speaks for itself. Anything you say now is after the fact, and you don't get edits on that one, Bob. Exaggerations? No, Bob, I've got you pegged. Nasty little coward potstirrer you are. Rewriting history, you little scumbag.

I lost friends over there- not close friends or family members- I was not as unlucky as some- but people I respected and cared about. They were good people. They did their job. Unlike you, Bob. Unless your job is being a full-time piece of shit, in which case you're at the top of your game.

 

[Pat]

Fellas, Bob actually has a point.
Before OCS I was a draftee and my first platoon assignment were mostly draftees. Some were great, wanted to do their time and get out. For example, our company clerk was an attorney from New York, our armorer (the guy that took care of the rifles, machine guns and grenade launchers etc.) was the fellow that installed Audio-Animatronics at Disneyland. Needless to say our records and weapons were perfect. On the other hand, we had a group that hated being there, hated the officers and NCOs and on three occasions in my first year alone, tried to kill some of them. Calling the latter "Dregs" would do a disservice to regular dregs anywhere. It was tough sledding to get rid of them until the army got serious about drug testing and cleaned up their discharge processes.
As an officer I really thought I wanted a "cross section" of society in the military, like WW2. But the Vietnam era military was anything but. If you had money and connections you had a pretty good shot to avoid the draft. Some (like me) thought a lottery number of 214 was safe. It wasn’t'. Many were there (like my driver) because they had an ultimatum from a judge to go in the army or go to jail. Ironically, he turned out to be a pretty good kid with a little work and last time I heard, he’s works for the city in Pittsburg.
Post-Vietnam, the Army took a hard look at itself, and with the end of the draft it reinvented itself into the force that arguably is one of the best in history and they did it in a little over a decade. I've also had the honor of commanding all volunteer troops and there is nothing to compare what we have now to the horrible situation in the mid-'70s and all of us should be beholding to them. (We even should help them find jobs once they get out.) If you want to read about how they did it, have a look at “Hope is not a method” by Gordon Sullivan, the former chief of staff.
As for those that didn’t go, that’s no sin whatsoever. Hell, I didn’t want to go. My point is that all of you have the right to share your opinions, as much as we may sometimes disagree, because that’s what freedom is all about. And you don’t need to punch any sort of military ticket to do so. My original point to Mike is exactly that and I’d like to think that’s why I, and others like me put in their time.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Veek, I don't disagree with any of what you said. If you want to look at it this way: an all-volunteer military is, at least in theory, composed of professional soldiers who WANT to be in the military. I don't have a problem with that. But if you read Bob's statement, it defines people who were drafted as dregs, which is miserably unfair and vicious. I've reread my posts- they are angry and abusive and I am leaving them up exactly as they were. I'm not happy with myself for cursing him out, but I'd be even less happy with myself if I treated this as a gentlemen's disagreement. What he said was disgraceful. There were many people who were drafted and served their country honorably, some of them giving all they had up to and including their lives. They were not dregs. I'm glad the Army has improved itself. That does not mean, however, that everyone and everything that went before is worthless. And the remark that Bob made fits into a pattern of his statements about people that frankly make me sick. Today was the day I decided to say something about it.

 

[Bob Fechter]

The "evil" Richard Nixon eliminated the draft, and it made the military infinitely better by eliminating the dregs who didn't want to be there.

As testified above, there were a lot of young men who didn't want to be tied up in the military. They were full of animosity, and they made it miserable and dangerous to be anywhere near them.

the end of the draft eliminated that, and gave us a highly efficient fighting force populated by warriors who thrive on the situation.

This new military is full of heros who don't run around whining about petty little grievances, know why they are there because they still love God and Country.

Of course, the powers that be want to turn it into a "social experiment" for these brave people.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Like SSgt Bales. What a hero. Evidently the new volunteer army isn't quite bug-free yet. Of course, he didn't whine about petty grievances. He just killed a bunch of women and children while they were sleeping.

 

[Pat]

That's not fair Jim. Over 1.6 million military personnel have deployed to the conflicts since the war in Afghanistan began in late 2001. Painting SSG Bales as representative of the volunteer military makes as much sense as claiming Ted Kaczynski (a.k.a. the Unabomber) represents typical liberals.
SSG Bales was on his fourth deployment, he had been previously wounded and it would appear that he cracked with tragic consequences. It will be interesting to see if there were warning signs (there is a certification process for those deploying as being fit to go) and if the system could have prevented it. Given the frequency of rotations, it's really surprising there haven't been more of these. Soldiers are not allowed the time to decompress from the combat stress cycle. Bear in mind that in civilian life, a person could suffer from chronic PTSD as a result of a single, isolated life-threat experience (such as a physical assault or motor vehicle accident). I had a young woman that worked for me that was in the twin towers on 9/11 and she couldn't handle working in a tall building or hearing jets fly over.
By comparison, Americans were in ground combat for three years in WW2. Most, like my Dad, who landed at Normandy, were in harms way less than a year. In the Pacific, where combat fatigue was most prevalent, 40% of 1943 evacuations were "mental." 26,000 psychiatric cases were reported just from the Okinawa Campaign alone. 1,393,000 soldiers were treated for battle fatigue during WW2. Of all ground combat troops, 37% were discharged for psychiatric reasons. The most recent studies indicate the Iraq/Afghanistan PTSD number is about 17% but the analysis has been small and I don't believe conclusive.
I had it easy, my line time was in armor and artillery units and I never had to kick in doors and deal with the face to face horrors of an infantry soldier. So I'm not in a position to judge SSG Bales and whatever demons that possess him. The fact that innocent people died is tragic as is the toll on their families and that of SSG Bales.
Since 2001, six American service-members have received the Medal of Honor for actions in Afghanistan, three of them posthumously. I personally consider their honorable character of service far more representative of our military than that of SSG Bales.

 

[Ian Anderson]

Hi Veek

I watched the video and although I believe neither the US or UK should be in Afkak I wonder.

How many rounds of ammunition are expected to be expended now to make a single "kill" - per some web sites it is now 250 000.

Can you explain to a non military person (me) why there is such a high usage instead of being reduced?

Ian

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Fair enough, it was a cheap shot. Most soldiers and sailors, volunteer or not, don't behave that way. Thank God for that.

You've probably noticed this, but "Bob" stirs the pot and you end up defending him, more or less. Interesting. Of course, if "Bob" was as reasonable as you are, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we.

I'm a liberal, or a progressive, or whatever we call ourselves these days. I don't know what Ted Kacynski was. Except a killer. That is independent of political stripe. Murderers are first and foremost murderers.

And, FWIW, I have some compassion for Bales, although a great deal more for his victims and his family, who are now also victims along with everyone else. Evidently he served with some distinction until he flipped out. The Unabomber never had any to begin with.

 

[Jeff Young]

You've probably noticed this, but "Bob" stirs the pot and you end up defending him, more or less. Interesting. Of course, if "Bob" was as reasonable as you are, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we.

That's the thing. Pete and Veek are gentlemen, albeit ones with a different viewpoint than me. They are usually civil in their discussions and ask the same -- resaonably so -- in discussions with them. But they often times jump in and defend or even support Bob in some of his rants that are without question some of the most offensive stuff that gets posted here.

I get Pete and veek and like them, but I don't get that.

 

[Jim Craik]

This is data from the Viet Nam war

Draftees vs. volunteers: 25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII)

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.

So, only 25% of solders in Viet Nam were draftees.

If 3/4 of the soldiers were "volunteer", then blaming all the problems on "DREGS" seems like a bunch of crap, a cop out and just more conservative revisionist history!

Mr Fechter, Veek,

So, only 25% of the soldiers were draftees, yet these draftees accounted for 30.4% of the deaths.

Please tell us again how awful these 17,725 brave Americans were. Americans who gave ALL for their Country!!!!!!!

Veek, you said this about draftees:

Calling the latter "Dregs" would do a disservice to regular dregs anywhere./QUOTE]

DREGS MY ASS!!!!!!

I think you two should go to some Viet Nam Veterens reunions and tell them just what you think of them!

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I think that draftees accounted for a higher percentage of deaths because draftees were more often in front-line positions; isn't that the case? Weren't most of the men drafted into "enlisted" ranks, not officers? (I'm including NCOs in this, although I really don't know what the breakdown was) In any case, it would seem to me that they would have a higher exposure to death and injury because they occupied more hazardous billets.

And I don't think we should lump Veek in with Bob. Just my .02. I can have a discussion with Veek. I could have a beer with Veek. I don't disagree with Veek on everything. Bob? no way.