Valuable victory for the environmentalists

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
OK, so it didn't exactly fit into the Global warming thread...started this thread because I'm sure there are members here who will have opinions regarding our Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

Not long ago the EPA required states to make sure that the pollution created by coal-fired power plants does not impact the other states "downwind". This was, of course, challenged, mainly by the conservative states, including Texas, where I live, and the U.S. Supreme Court just ruled that the EPA does have the right to limit cross-state air pollution in this admittedly very narrow context.

So...right now it only applies to the pollutants produced by burning coal. I know because I am a member of an electrical cooperative in Kansas that many states are refusing to allow new coal-fired power plants to be constructed unless they install powerful "scrubbers" to capture those pollutants before they can be admitted.

We all use electricity, so we're all involved in some way in creating the problem...now somebody has to solve the problem.

I am sure that there will be outcries regarding the increased cost of building the new power plants due to the cost of the scrubbers, etc., and I do not deny that will raise the end-price of their product. I also know that there are unique methods out there of producing electricity that are not polluting...costly, yes, but if you believe that we humans are having a negative impact on our environment's health, then it must interest you.

I guess I'm concerned that the EPA might take this and run wild...eventually insisting that farmers control the dispersion of the methane gasses their livestock produces, etc...those concerns will probably fall into that 95% of things we worry about that never become a problem, but with the current environmental issues we're facing world wide, I'm curious about what others think, too.

Please chime in if you have an opinion...thanks!

Cheers!

Doug
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
With these price increase, you'll never be able to retire. Seriously Doug

I could retire again right now if it were not for a 30 year old daughter who finally realized she would never be able to afford to support herself on the wages she was earning...and this time she is not only talking the talk, she's walking the walk...maintaining a 4.0 GPA :thumbsup:

I agree that prices for natural gas may well rise. Keep in mind they declined once "fracking" proved we as a nation had much greater reserves of natural gas than we believed. The jury is still out regarding whether or not fracking will create greater problems than they resolve, but even if that is resolved I would expect that prices will rise again as natural gas becomes the fuel of choice for power generation. A beneficial side effect is the fact that it does so without all the pollution the law was designed to address.

IMHO, perhaps the impetus is upon us to prioritize the rights that people claim to be free from the pollution over the conveniences that result from using dirty fuels to create that energy. I say "claim" because one of the things I felt was so unfair in education was that those students who had handicaps were endowed with certain rights by law that the general population did not enjoy, as they had not been conferred the rights by law. The only rights we Americans we have are those we have been granted, either through legislation or judicial review.

There is precedent...take for example the law in the state of Colorado regarding no-smoking in publicly accessible buildings. The onus is on the proprietress to enforce that law and if complaints arise the business can be fined. I have always maintained that your right to smoke stops when the second hand smoke reaches my nose, so I support Colorado's efforts. This determination by the U.S. Supreme Court seems to establish my right to be free from pollution from out-of-state sources.

My cost for energy may well increase...I firmly believe the health benefits justify the increased costs.

Cheers!!

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter

The question is: When will the public - EVEN THE LIBS - get fed up with being S-C-R-E-W-E-D by the consequences that result from govt/govt regs in general and EPA regs/dictates in specific, and openly revolt...as in armed...in the streets...1776 style?

Do those who back all this "climate change" crap not understand what 150% increases in energy costs would do to the price of U.S. goods vs. overseas competition? Do they have ANY C-L-U-E what this kinda crap would do to the domestic job market? 'To the gross domestic product? 'To GOVT'S OWN TAX RECEIPTS??? And that just barely scratches the surface of the whole 'econ' picture.

'Bacardi time...
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
It would take a lot more that what I've seen. I'm thankful that I can go outside and exert myself without fear of what I'm breathing, that I can go to work without worry that a door will not be locked if a fire breaks out, or that my bank account is somewhat safe. I don't mind paying $.008 per kW in order to be able to do that. Until those who have the ability and power be act ethically toward the greater social good, actually practice that on their own, then I suspect only those that don't want to do so would be the ones that "get fed up" with the regulation. Who in their right mind actually believes companies will regulate themselves in these matters, or any other self-regulating matter if they aren't forced to?
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
There's a difference between businesses and individuals being subject to common sense "regulations" and what's going on now, namely: 'Do so because we in power have DEEMED (in true Pelosi fashion) the enviornmental theories we have chosen to accept are actual fact - and we dictate that you have to accept them as fact, too.'

'Same thing applies to Obamacare. WE know best. YOU know nothing and your opinions MEAN nothing. Therefore, YOU will do as WE say - period.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
The question is: When will the public - EVEN THE LIBS - get fed up with being S-C-R-E-W-E-D by the consequences that result from govt/govt regs in general and EPA regs/dictates in specific, and openly revolt...as in armed...in the streets...1776 style?

Larry, I have been predicting armed insurrection for a long time, but not over political ideologies in particular as much as the ever-widening gap between the "haves" and the "have nots". Class warfare...I can hear the rumblings of discontent all the way from the upper Midwest, where labor lost their right to collective bargaining, leaving their fates in the hands of their fat-cat employers now that those individuals have had their gluttonous intentions ratified. If it is going to be warfare based strictly on numbers, who do you think will prevail?

I think that sort of armed insurrection is much more likely than the general public becoming upset and revolting. Keep in mind that whichever political persuasion is in charge was elected by popular vote (unless you are GEE-Dub and have a brother who IMHO can make determinations that turn the vote around)...and before anyone asks for proof, please go back and note the IMHO part.

Prices WILL go up long term...it seems to be an inevitable result of our capitalistic economy.

As the developing countries become more modernized we may see some of those jobs that have disappeared overseas return. In the meantime, though, we can all contribute to our country's economy by, like Al W. says, buying American. It will cost more, but may well be in our country's benefit...just like paying more for clean energy.

To get back on topic, though, I believe our country has the brainpower to develop technology that will ensure that airborne pollution can be diminished to an acceptable level.

Cheers!!

Doug
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
There's a difference between businesses and individuals being subject to common sense "regulations" and what's going on now, namely: 'Do so because we in power have DEEMED (in true Pelosi fashion) the enviornmental theories we have chosen to accept are actual fact - and we dictate that you have to accept them as fact, too.'

'Same thing applies to Obamacare. WE know best. YOU know nothing and your opinions MEAN nothing. Therefore, YOU will do as WE say - period.

Larry, do you believe this is a practice limited only to the Obama administration? If so, I would direct your attention to the inequities enforced by Tom Delay when he was SOTH.

Buy I digress...back to the topic at hand. This was not a close vote by the Supreme Court, which seems to be split 5-to-4 in favor of conservative ideology. The vote was 6-to-2.

Cheers!

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
To get back on topic, though, I believe our country has the brainpower to develop technology that will ensure that airborne pollution can be diminished TO AN ACCEPTABLE LEVEL.

There's the rub. What's "acceptable" to a rational person isn't anywhere NEAR low enough for most greenies.

And further - at what cost would the greenie's 'vision' be achievable in terms of $$$, jobs, etc., etc? IOW, what good is a perfect "green" world if no one can afford to live in it?
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
This was not a close vote by the Supreme Court, which seems to be split 5-to-4 in favor of conservative ideology. The vote was 6-to-2.

We don't have a conservative 'Court. Roberts proved that with the Obamacare decision. Likewise with the "eminent domain" decision. No conservative 'court would have given its stamp of approval to either one.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
There's a difference between businesses and individuals being subject to common sense "regulations" and what's going on now, namely: 'Do so because we in power have DEEMED (in true Pelosi fashion) the enviornmental theories we have chosen to accept are actual fact - and we dictate that you have to accept them as fact, too.'

'Same thing applies to Obamacare. WE know best. YOU know nothing and your opinions MEAN nothing. Therefore, YOU will do as WE say - period.

My interpretation of "common sense" regulation includes spending less than a penny per kW in helping to keep our air clean (just look at Beijing or pictures of LA in the 50's and 60's) and keeping regulation that initiated that, especially in light of the huge benefit we have in this country with cheap electrical energy. Think how much benefit you get from electrical power versus what you spend on it.
 
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Who knows, maybe you guys will one day end up paying as much as we do for a kWh of electricity?

Good luck with that! :p
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Larry, do you believe this is a practice limited only to the Obama administration? If so, I would direct your attention to the inequities enforced by Tom Delay when he was SOTH.


I was unaware that Delay, like Obama, et al, also wanted to completely eliminate the coal industry. Nor was I aware that Delay wanted to force (via regs, etc.) the price of fossil fuels in general to go thru the roof in the name of 'saving the planet', or whatever. 'Wasn't aware he wanted to force a national healthcare system onto the nation that 70+ percent of the people were dead set against either.

I musta been sleepin' thru all that...
 
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Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
My comment was not about topics, Larry, it was about tactics...your comment about Pelosi's tactics. Where was your outrage when Delay was up to the same?

I do agree with others about the price of electricity here in the U.S.A. I had great concerns when utilities went unregulated...not all of those have proven to be founded. Prices did rise...but, as I said before, IMHO that is just a function of our economic system.

Cheers!

Doug
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
'Wasn't aware he wanted to force a national healthcare system onto the nation that 70+ percent of the people were dead set against either.

Larry, you say that 70%+ are dead set against National Health care, it that true?

This is a Rasmussen Poll released Monday

Monday, April 28, 2014

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 40% of Likely U.S. Voters think the federal government should require every American to buy or obtain health insurance.

Forty-five percent (45%) oppose this so-called individual mandate. Fifteen percent (15%) are undecided.

************
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Go nuclear.

I'd agree, Pete...if it weren't for the ramifications of failure, ala Chernobyl and our own Three Mile Island, not to mention what happened in the Asian Tsunami (wasn't that Korea?). The penalty points for failure seem to be too big a risk to me.

Having said that, though, we do have a nuclear power plant near where I live and it appears to operate safely...although I admit I have not read inspection reports, etc.

If we can develop technology to make nuclear foolproof, I would support it wholeheartedly. We do seem to have difficulty finding someplace to store the spent rods, though, and they will be a risk for millenniums, not just years, decades or centuries...that must be taken into account.

All-in-all, there seems to be very little middle-ground regarding nuclear.

Cheers!!

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Larry, you say that 70%+ are dead set against National Health care, it that true?

This is a Rasmussen Poll released Monday

Monday, April 28, 2014

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 40% of Likely U.S. Voters think the federal government should require every American to buy or obtain health insurance.

Forty-five percent (45%) oppose this so-called individual mandate. Fifteen percent (15%) are undecided.

************

Oh, good grief, Jim. CLEARLY I was referring to the stats back when Obamacare was about to be voted on. And those stats WILL be seen again - and WORSE - when the employer mandates kick in and the minions find out their employer-based healthcare is no more courtesy of the ACA...POST 2016 elections, of course....Obama has seen to that.

The only people who will "love it" THEN will be those who will be getting it on 'the other guy's dime'.
 
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