Lucas Flick Switches

Want to use the Lucas flick switches on the dash like Paul W has on his Tornado

Eurospares has them HERE

Was wondering what type switch these are by part number, IE SPST, DPDT, and what amperage these switches are good to.

The part numbers are
LFS1
LFS2
LFS3
LFS4
LFS5
LFS6
LFS7

Another question, does anyone know a source for Lucas switches in the States?

Yes, this Cobra parts house has them. See this web page. I don't know if they are the cheapest but the service is good.

Ok , found the answer to the type of switch, and the US source, thanks to Mark. Price is ok and don't have to ship from UK, the cheaper ones are inferior anyway.

Only question left is the amp ratings?

Kalun, not sure of the actual ratings, but I had to install a relay for the fan switch as mine was hooked up direct and kept burning up the swithches (not an electrical person). Lynn Larsen posted a sight that had Lucas look-a-like swithces that did not need to be relayed as they could take all the current.

Lucas commonly known as "The Prince of Darkness" take my advice and use relays on all switches.If the switches are only asked to flow relay coil currents,reliability is extremely high.Fans draw lots of current, so I'm not surprised the Lucas switches couldn't handle it.Using relays allows you to locate them near the heavy current unit (eg fan),this helps you keep the high current wiring short and voltage drops to a minimum.Dont forget to fuse relay circuits, I locate fuses with relays and wire from there.On my 40 I have a relay/fuse panel for lights and Fans located in passenger foot well and another fuse/relay panel behind passeger seat for motor control.The switches on the dash only carry relay coil currents and I've never had a problem.
Ross

"use relays on all switches"

That may be overkill, especially on low load items. The tank diverter valve is only 1.5 amps. Going to run LED's on all the running lights, very low load. The rad fan is only 7 amps, with the switches that Lynn linked to with a 20 amp rating you wouldn't need a relay and it's just more stuff to go wrong. To properly and most economically build an electrical system from scratch, from a cost and labor standpoint, you need to know the specs of all the components.

The Lucas stuff may be weak and unreliable but damn it sure is pretty. Another question would be if the switches that Mark had a problem with were Lucas parts or cheap knock-offs.

HI KALUN- Ok I should clarify,I have a relay on 1/ Radiator Fan
2/ Headlights
3/ wipers
4/ fuel pumps
5/ starter solenoid
6/ ignition

I would put a relay on 7/ a horn (if I had one)
8/ air conditioning compressor (if I had one)

I haven't put a relay on 1/ Park/ Tail lights
2/ Turn signal lights
3/ dash lights
4/ gauges
I don't know if your into electrics but take it from me 7 amps is a large current in my book, and too high for any switch even though they may be rated at 20 amps.DC current doesn't like being interrupted when connected to an inductive load (eg motors,solenoids etc)and when you turn off a switch there will be an arc which over time results in a rise in resistance,heating of contacts and failure of the switch contacts.Relays have a snap sprung loaded action with higher quality contacts.I would put a relay on the 1.5 amp tank diverter solenoid as well.Relays are cheap and don't add that much complexity.You seem to have ignored the benefit I mentioned too of reduced voltage drop by locating relays close to the heavy current circuits.Ask any Datsun 240z owner who's driven those cars without headlight relays.Only 8 volts at the h/lights drops 100watt globes to a miserable 60watts.
Now to your statement "To properley and most economically build an electrical system from scratch,from a cost and labour standpoint, you need to know the specs of all the components".That sounds wonderful and correct because you should be able to use a 20 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit right!!!! Well I say wrong because reliability is only achieved with over design.A 20 amp switch used on a 2 amp circuit will probably last forever.
I have designed and built Amplifiers for the music industry for the last 30 years and over designing has been the key to reliability in all of them.Pretty doesn't cut it with me.Lucas are well known for their dodgy electrics in cars eg Jaguar,Lotus etc.Now Japanese cars have brilliant electrics, and guess what they use? Yep relays everywhere.Enough said, if you don't agree with me it doesn't matter because at least other readers on this forum can make up their own minds.This is not a personal attack on you Kalun just facts from my experience, take it or leave it.
Ross

Lucas Flick Switches

Sorry to rub your fur the wrong way there Ross and thanks for taking the time to point out where I'm mistaken. I've done some scratch electronics but never anything this extensive with the EFI and all. I'm frustrated also at paying over $40 for a switch but not being able to find the specs.

Looks like I'll need to add a 4 gang relay block because I do want reliability over pretty but you should be able to have both. Purchased a RonFrancis fuse/relay box, it has 2 relays marked horn and fan. The GEN 7 comes with 2, one for the ECU, one for the fuel pump.

Looking at a '70 240Z wiring diagram, it only has a relay for the hi beams, assuming this is because they draw more amps?

So what you're also saying is you can have voltage drop that doesn't necessarily cause failure but causes sub par performance? Looks like I need to do some voltage drop tests now as soon as I re-learn how to do that

""6/ ignition""
so is this the main "key on" power that goes to the fuse box and gets distributed from there?
.
One more question though, why put a relay on a 1.5 amp fuel diverter solenoid? Is it just because it's a solenoid? Keep in mind it is only switched when you're changing tanks.

""reliability is only achieved with over design""
can't disagree with that at all

I still stand by my statement that to properly build something you need to know the specs of the materials, I was just a little confused about what "properly" meant. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No apology required Kalun.I'm staggered you've paid $40 for a switch, I can't think of any switch that would be worth that kind of money.When you say you can't find the specs are you referring to the current and voltage rating or single/double throw,single pole,double pole etc?
Use the Lucas flick switches to control the relay coils (as I have),place the relays near the units they are to control and not only can the switches be single pole/single throw but the wiring between switch and remote relay can be light gauge.Use heavy gauge wiring between relay contacts and the Fans/lights/pumps they are controlling.Doing this will give you the "pretty" and reliability as long as your wiring is of a high standard.
To explain even further, the switches on my dash are basically control circuits for the remote relays.
I have a Painless fuse panel under the dash, and I made aluminium panels to mount the required number of relays and fuses.All the engine management relays are behind the passenger seat and the fan/headlight relays are in the passenger footwell.I don't have a keyswitch for ignition, I've used
a toggle switch under a quick flick off aircraft style actuator.When I activate this switch it energises the EFI Relay. The ECU now has power and fuel pump relay is activated.Next when I push the start button it activates a relay on the engine management panel which in turn activates the starter."Voltage drop causes sub par performance" yes you must always minimise the length of wires carrying high currents and maximise the wires cross sectional area.
I think you would be ok just using a switch on the 1.5amp fuel diverter solenoid but if you have a spare relay use it especially if it's controlled by a lucas flick switch.
The 3 240z cars I have owned had no lighting relays at all(until I fitted them)maybe USA delivered cars did have one fitted for high beam which yes have a higher wattage and draw more amps.
Another thing I should mention, although the switches are single pole/single throw the relays can be selected to be multi pole/ double throw if required.You can definately avoid buying $40 switches.
Ross

Ross, very good recommendations and instructions, thanks. And had it not been for your generosity I too would be paying $40 per switch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Thanks again.

""are you referring to the current and voltage rating or single/double throw,single pole,double pole etc?""

current and voltage, but at this point it probably doesn't matter because I'm going to use relays.

The $40 switch is a double pole, triple throw, so that may be in the ballpark.

Hi Tim glad to hear your getting something out of this too.Kalun that switch would no doubt be the wiper switch, off/on/on for 2 speed wipers.Do you have the Lucas wiper motor?I have a twin relay circuit for this and it works well and parks the wipers at the fast speed, even if they were running on slow speed.Something different I get a kick out of that.If you want the circuit let me know.You could use one of those switches on tne lights as well but I noticed the original cars used 2 switches, one to activate the lights and the other for high/low beam, both switches can be single pole/ single throw.I have powered the tail /park lights directly from the 1st switch, which also activates the h/light relay and the high/low beam switch activates a 2nd relay for the change over.
Now I haven't discussed earthing so here goes.I run separate earth wires back to a bolt welded upside down on the chassis, very nicely provided by RF. One in the engine bay, front of car h/light fan area and under dash.Some small earth wires I will group into one soldered lug but all heavy current earths have their own soldered or crimped lug.I don't have a problem with crimping as long as it's done well using the correct tool.In 2 years I have not had to revisit the electrics in my car.I've even forgotten how I wired some of it in trying to impart it to you guys.What I'm saying is reliability comes fom neat clean layout,relays handling high currents and good earths.Leaves me free to drive the car and try to beat those damn Porsches. Not spending hours trying to find an intermittent high resistance electrical joint.It is worth noting that engine management faults are very often traced to high resistance earths which eminate from poor or dodgy workmanship.I'm ok on Map based engine management tuning now too.Constructed my own wide band Lambda meter from a kit.I enjoy imparting my knowledge and also enjoy the knowledge gained from you guys on the mechanical side of things.I have a couple of rules I follow. Do it right the first time and do it once.I hate spending time and money going over things a second time.Cheryl, wife calls me a perfectionist,she may be right as I can't mow the lawns without doing it right.Let me know if I can help more with the electrics guys very willing to help.
Ross

Finally got an answer back from the Florida Lucas switch suppliers, their down in Hurricane alley and still recovering. The Lucas switches are rated at 20 amps.

""Do you have the Lucas wiper motor?""

No, it's www.SpecialtyPowerWindows.com just the basic 2 speed, no intermittent.

""I have a twin relay circuit for this and it works well and parks the wipers at the fast speed, even if they were running on slow speed. Something different I get a kick out of that. If you want the circuit let me know.""

Sure, let's see it

""I'm ok on Map based engine management tuning now too. Constructed my own wide band Lambda meter from a kit.""

Is that a Techedge system? Does it do the closed loop with your Motec? I'm envious of the Motec, it's out of the budget range here in the states. The main thing the GEN7 doesn't have that may be desireable is a VSS input.

""Let me know if I can help more with the electrics guys very willing to help.""

hope you don't come to regret that statement 8&gt

Another question, I've seen stereo amp (large) main power wires that are run across or very near to factory ECU's cause weird problems, like multiple random trouble codes etc. I would like to run the main + battery cable (battery in front) down the center of the car within 6 inches or so of the ignition and wide band controllers and near the smart coils. Should I just avoid this altogether and run the positive cable elsewhere? Is there some general separation distance or do you think the cable going to the starter is even going to do the same thing as a big amp stereo main power wire?

Is this RFI or electro-magnetic interference? Accel does warn you about RFI from secondary ignition but nothing about large positive wires.

I'm also working on a cad drawing of the more complex and relayed circuits and when done would like to post it for critique.

Hi Kalun
I'll stick to my theory on getting reliability from those Lucas switches.Downrate their current rating by 50 or 75% or use relays and they can only self destruct physically.The lucas relay circuit
would be no use to you.I like the sound of the motor you have.I checked the website and if you have the kit I reckon you should use relays in place of the switch and energize the relay coil/s with flick switch.The wideband meter I have is from Techedge model Wbo2.I'm not top of the hit parade with Motec at the moment after having a prang with their Cobra Daytona replica yesterday.Explained a bit more on GT40 vs GT3 forum.I'm not really interested in closed loop operation but probably the best feature of Motec is the quick Lambda function.With a data logging enabled ECU you can wire in a wide band sensor,set up target maps for fuel air ratio and as your tuning you move to the next site, the crunching happens almost instantly, sets the ratio to your target and moves to the next site.Very quick and saves time on dyno too.The motec ECUs have an input for wideband sensors to cater for closed loop operation if you choose to run it.They are expensive but I think the USA distributor is over charging.I've discussed this with mr Motec but there are politics involved.By the way the guy that was driving the Daytona yesterday runs head office in Melbourne.What is the VSS input for on the GEN7 Kalun?Maybe theres a way around it.
I don't think you will have a problem running your battery cable down the centre of the car.The inputs to the ECU should be protected from noise and you will find the sync and ref signal wires will most likely be screened. keep any input wires away from coils etc.Large wires from the battery
don't generate RFI or emg so no worry there.It's more likely the trouble codes that were set were caused by the high power amp dragging the volts down below ECU regulation than any airborn interference.
Love to see your cad drawing.I wish I could formalize some of my drawings but time is the problem.
Ross

""I'll stick to my theory on getting reliability from those Lucas switches.Downrate their current rating by 50 or 75% or use relays and they can only self destruct physically.""

Tend to agree after reading all the info you've presented. It's what all the Japanese manufactures have done, they make bulletproof switches but still use relays, so there must be something there.

""What is the VSS input for on the GEN7 Kalun?""

The Motec has it the GEN 7 doesn't. A large factor in tuning is increased load from wind drag at speed. One way of measuring this is with a speed sensor.

""It's more likely the trouble codes that were set were caused by the high power amp dragging the volts down below ECU regulation than any airborn interference.""

It's a documented phenomenon that I've run across a couple times. The Honda Engineering Tech Line has information on it and I've confirmed it by just moving the hi power wire away from the ECU and the problem goes away. I'm just guessing but maybe it's similar to when you go under hi-tension power lines and your radio gets static. In that case it would be RFI?

What does EMG stand for?

""I wish I could formalize some of my drawings but time is the problem.""

ha ha ha, There's always more new projects than there are old ones getting finished. I'm waiting for cloning to come on line, going to need about 5 of me to get everything done on time.

I'm running an M48 in my car and it doesn't have this speed sensor input.I'll check but I would think it only available in the high end M800 ECU.I didn't read your post very well did I.It was hot yesterday I'll blame that.My other mistake was EMG I meant EMR (electro magnetic radiation)you probably know this but when a current flows through a wire it sets up a magnetic field around it.This magnetic field could get strong enough to affect an ECU as you say,but you can look at it 2 ways.The ECU should be in an earthed metal case and sensitive inputs shielded (in other words protected from EMR)and sensible wiring practice should not run high current cables near the ECU.A panel of aluminium should contain the EMR though.So by moving your high power wire away from the ECU you cured your problem but which Item is to blame?Happens all the time in the electronics game.
Glad to know I'm not the only time poor person around.I reckon that's why the years seem to flash by when you get older.I think there may be a financial reason why the Japs use lots of relays,It allows them to cut down the heavy cables running around the car.Have you seen how light their wiring is getting?

Ross

hi ross,i noticed here you mentioned getting your supply of switches from wrecked cars and i was wondering if you could enlighten me to which ones so i could do the same .we are lucky in nz to have so much stock in paddocks and back sheds.thanks ali grey

Hi Ali
Yes I did the rounds in Christchurch when I bought up a few.Early Minis,1100s etc even got the headlight switch new old stock from an Auto electrician.I still have some if your interested.Let me know.
Ross

thanks ross i will keep that in mind but i will have ago at finding some its half the fun,cheers ali

Ok, here's another question for Ross or anyone that wants to answer. How to determine which fuses go to which loads. It's a custom fuse box with 16 fuses and these are the loads

EFI main relay 30 amp
EFI trigger wire (3amp)
Left fuel pump relay 30 amp
Right fuel pump relay 30 amp
electric water pump relay 15 amp
cooling fans relay 15 amp
horn relay
headlight relay (separate fuses each side)
driving light relay
running lights
brake lights
turn signals
starter solenoid relay
distributorless ignition 2 amp
vent/heater blower fan
gauges

How do you determine from the amperage load of an item what fuse to use?

When combining more than one load on one fuse do you add the amperage and put a larger fuse than the total? How does the fuse still protect an individual load?