Fuel cell, fire system

Why you need a fire system. Better yet and fuel cell and a fire system.

YouTube - Horrible crash Brno || Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4 BURNS ||

That video also empathizes why you need track and corner workers worth a damn and not just some guys getting paid $5 hour. Those "firemen" could have put that fire out around the driver and got him out in seconds if any of them knew what the hell they were doing.

The thing that really got me was the incident happened right at the start finish Line, not halfway around the back of the track. Then I really only see one guy who knows what he is doing with a dry power fire extinguisher. He's the guy who isn't a fireman and aims his nozzle right into the cockpit. If they had all lined up and handed him their bottles they might have done some good. At one point there must be twice as many firemen putting out the track as putting out the cockpit. There is even one guy who shoots his whole load from the grandstands!

Then the real firetrucks show up and I didn't see anybody with a fog nozzle. Just some small squirt garden hose nozzle that did nothing.

Three guys with a 2 inch hose and a fog nozzle could have prevented nearly all the burns. The thing that saved him (if he was saved) was the wind was blowing the fire off the car. If it had been the other way around they wouldn't have even got him out of it until they had the fire out. Basically they saved the asphalt.

This typical of amateurs, everybody whats to shoot off the fire extinguisher but nobody really wants to get close enough to do any good.

I never did see anybody go in low and try and cool the cockpit down. Jeeze you could train with this video.

Howard Jones said:

....(if he was saved)....

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"The celebration of the 80th anniversary of Masaryk circuit went horribly wrong last weekend. Giorgio Bartocci had to be transported to the University hospital in a critical condition after a serious crash of his Lamborghini.
Since the black Saturday, news about Giorgio’s health have been slighlty positive. According to respected Twitter stream MotosportPrint, <Q>Giorgio Bartocci has a broken leg, broken ribs and 2nd degree burns to 40% of his body but is now off a respirator."</Q>
<Q></Q>
<Q>Driver Giorgio Bartocci off a respirator, his condition improves</Q>

I'm with you Howard. A proper fuel cell would have really helped in this case. I disagree with a comment I saw elsewhere on this forum that fuel cells are prone to leaking as I've not observed that on my cars or other race cars I'm around. I've seen some fairly crushed up fuel cells that never leaked a drop.

I can't understand why these guys are allowed to race without cells and without fire systems. But, it isn't really clear if the cars have safety cages either. A week or so ago there were pictures here of a GT40 in Italy in the same situation - no safety cage, no fuel cell, and probably no fire system. If people think so little of themselves that they won't spend the coin (probably $8k at MOST on a $100k+ car) to correct those items, well, then I don't think too highly of them either.

Ron Earp said:

That video also empathizes why you need track and corner workers worth a damn and not just some guys getting paid $5 hour. Those "firemen" could have put that fire out around the driver and got him out in seconds if any of them knew what the hell they were doing.

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X2 on everything you said... Another reason I prefer SCCA Racing over NASA..

Ron, in my experience, every fuel cell older than 5 years is at risk of leaking. And they ALL will leak by a few years thereafter. The only indication you get is a pool of gasoline under your racecar one day. Time to write a check for $1500.00 or so and begin the not inconsequential job of replacing the cell.

Racecars by definition require a lot of expensive maintenance, and this is just another example. You have to have a fuel cell to go racing, I'm not arguing that.

My comments were about street cars(the SPF GT40 in particular)that are not going to get the constant maintenance a racecar has lavished upon it. For this reason, steel encased fuel tanks inside the GT40 side sills are a better fuel storage solution for a street car than fuel cells IMO.

Jack

My fuel cell experience has been pretty good, I think, and not abnormal near as I can tell. My first leak occurred after 12 to 14 years on the job, but I bought a new bladder for $625, dropped it in the can in an hour, and I hope I'm good for another ten years or longer - fingers crossed (quite naturally I tried to be cheap and repair it but that didn't work!). I know cells are not rated for that long a use, but the guys I race with that use the 12, 15, and 20 gallon rectangular cells get extremely long use from them. I'll be keeping the cell in my car when it retires from race duty as I will still plan on the odd track day with the car.

I bet the driver of the lambo was none too happy. Ineffective corner workers and seemingly lax safety standards just about killed the fellow. However, I suppose as a driver he knew the situation with the car ahead of time, although he had no control over the corner workers.

Most of my fuel cell experience is with Shelby Can Ams. I share a garage with two other SCA racers and about eight total SCA racecars.

We go through fuel cells often enough that we keep one on the shelf for the next leaker. I'd say a SCA fuel cell bladder lasts on average 7 years. They are a custom size, which explains the cost difference. We've used both of the big fuel cell mfrs., and they both last about the same.

One of the fuel cell mfr. reps told us that putting pump gas (or no lead racing gas) will shorten the life of a fuel cell bladder quite a bit (something that I noticed as well). He also advised us to keep some race fuel in the bladder at all times to extend the life of the cell.

My other racecars, which include a FAtlantic and an Osella sports racer also require custom fuel cells, and they also don't last as long as yours. Besides costing more, perhaps custom bladder shapes/designs contribute to a shorter life compared to off the shelf rectangular designs.

Jack

jd3 said:

One of the fuel cell mfr. reps told us that putting pump gas (or no lead racing gas) will shorten the life of a fuel cell bladder quite a bit (something that I noticed as well). He also advised us to keep some race fuel in the bladder at all times to extend the life of the cell.

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Yowsa!

All our cells and the ones I speak of lasting a long time are 100% pump gas use - SCCA IT cars, pump gas at 93 octane. Maybe it is as you say and these custom bladders from ATL, Fuelsafe etc. don't last as long as these standard cans we use.

On the other hand, some pump gas is 10% EtOH and I'm not sure if bladders like that or not. I'd think not and would contribute to problems.

Hard to say. Maybe we've been really lucky and you've been really unlucky, I just don't know.

Well I hope the guy comes out of this with something like a normal life afterwards. He sure is lucky. A rescue that screwed up is usually fatal.

Because we are such good customers, we have spent a lot of time talking with tech people at the fuel cell mfrs. About 5-6 yrs. ago they advised us about no lead race gas/pump gas aromatics attacking the plastic coating on fuel cell bladders at an accelerated rate vs. leaded race gas. Its possible that things have changed since (coatings, gasoline formulations, etc.).

I'm not complaining about replacing fuel cells every 7 yrs. That's "forever" in racecar terms.

Experiences shape opinions, thus while I'd certainly install fuel cells in my SPF GT40 if I ever decided to track it seriously, I wouldn't do it as long as its a street car.

I'm really glad this thread came up. As I will be installing a fire system in my SPF by the end of the year what would you guys recommend?

Push/pull
Temp activated
Bottle size
Nozzle placement
Nozzle count
Automatic activation in an overturn.

TIA
Rich.

Bigblockquad said:

what would you guys recommend?


TIA
Rich.

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I'll tell you the decisions I made and the rationale, but it's not a recommendation because I have neither the experience nor knowledge to justify that:

Push/pull - pull, less likely to be accidentally engaged
Temp activated -- I like to be in control (when I'm conscious,... I know...)
Bottle size -- safecraft 5 lb if I remember correctly, not at home right now
Nozzle placement -- one at center of dash (for us), one at front of engine; these were suggestion of Paul's at Olthoff.
Nozzle count -- 2
Automatic activation in an overturn. -- no, same logic (or illogic) as for temp activation.

I'd love to hear a critique from the more knowledgeable and experienced, since I haven't installed it yet.

I agree and disagree. I'm a "Hope for the best, plan for the worst" kinda guy. I'd like a system that will still activate even if I'm out.

Bigblockquad said:

I agree and disagree. I'm a "Hope for the best, plan for the worst" kinda guy. I'd like a system that will still activate even if I'm out.

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So I see that for temperature, but do you think the same thing for rollover and/or shock?

Having been baptized by fire (first race too!) I'd not have a track car, race or track day, without a system. I prefer the manual pull systems because I feel it is quite simple and reliable. On the T70 we have two 10 lb AFFF systems, a front and rear unit. There are two pulls on the dash and they are arranged that they can be pulled simultaneously. Each bottle empties into three nozzles that are setup in a standard pattern L/R/C that is recommended. In addtion, there is small 2lb hand extinguisher bolted to the cage driver left.

Part of the 10 lb bottles can be see on the sill here as I was refitting the MSD arrangement (bottles not properly clamped and in position yet).

As much fire supression as you can really afford. If you can still get (afford ) Halon
there is nothing better. If you are going in for competition you will need something else as well. Aqueous Filming Water is probably what you may need (Afff is Aqueous Film Forming Foam and the properties are wide coverage and low expansion) I've never been in a car fire but I can tick the box for hotels and a minor aeroplane fire.
It frightens me like nothing else can and when I joined up there were still a lot of men serving in the R.A.F. who had survived the war but were hideously burned in their aeroplanes. Medical science and surgery has not really improved that much since then and if you get badly burned you end up looking like a guy called Simon Weston. (you can google his name if you want to look) [SIZE=-1]

In 1982 the Sir Galahad was destroyed in Bluff Cove on the Falkland Islands. On board was Simon Weston, Welsh Guardsman, a name and face that was going to become well known for his struggle to overcome his injuries (46% burns) and redefine his role in life. .

Simon endured years of re-constructive surgery, including 70 major operations or surgical procedures.. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
As for nozzles - I can only talk about Halon - I have a 7.5kg two compartment bottle
(5 and 2.5) which operates on a single squib system using push buttons (Two - one inside and the other one outside near the A post area) anthe the nozzles are a spray bar surrounding the Webers (nothing else would seem as imflammable as the webers and they seem to spit petrol when ever I try to start it ) and the other nozzle very close to the bottle inside the car under the passengers thighs. The master switch is
by the right door on the A post. It will be back on the road - I hope - for 2011 season and a possible UK tour.

I would recommend as much as you can fit. The more the better! I have 3 nozzles one over the back of the fuel tanks where all the fittings are and the other in front of the engine where the fuel rail connections are. If you don't have fuel cells a crack in one of the tanks will almost be impossible to put out with a fire system. One other reason I have the battery in the front passenger foot well. I don't like the idea of that much current that close to a metal tank.

The volunteer fire company in the piss ant little town in CT that I came from had a reputation of always saving the foundation. They were far better trained than the guys at this track.