Engine and tranny installation

Hello,
I am getting very close to pulling the trigger on the Superformance MK11 car purchase. I have never built a car of this caliper so I am tentative about the engine and transmission installation. I have a very good mechanical aptitude and a mechanical engineer by trade. Based on your experience, is this something that should be left to the experts or can this be achieved minimal additional to the vocabulary? The engine I want to install in this car is a big block Ford from Jon Kasse, P-51 series stable of engines. Please provide some feedback, all are appreciated.
 
If you're fairly mechanical engine /trans installation is not that difficult on an SPF. I did mine in about 2 weeks. I'm not a mechanic by training, but have owned several race cars that required engine removals/installations. Having said that my SPF has a 427 Windsor stroker. Your Kasse engine is FE based with custom heads. That may involve custom headers or other work to get it to fit the SPF. FE's require a different bellhousing and engine mounts. I believe Alan Watkins is the only forum member that did his own FE installation on an SPF. Hope you're not going for an 800hp Kasse big block!
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
If you know what end of a wrench to hold and can think things all the way through, you can do the install. Understand that even with a common powertrain there are some "issues" you will encounter. One of my customers recently had a problem with the pulleys fouling on the bulkhead during the install. A little careful thought and eyeballing by him found the factory had bolted the mount pedestals left for right that put the engine forward two inches. A quick swap side for side put it right.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best and you will be OK..............
 
Kaase P51 series motors are based on the 385 series ( 429/460 cubic inch ), have not read of many if any SPF cars with one of those, I think you might have just amped up the degree of difficulty in your engine install:)... Bell housing bolt pattern, mount positions, & exh port position are all different to the FE engine.......
 
JacMac thanks for the correction on the Kasse engine. Charlie-are you even sure engine dimensions will fit SPF especially at firewall end?
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
A 385 series engine MAY fit but we do not support it, i.e. not headers, brackets, hoses etc. You would be totally on your own doing such an install. At least with an FE or Windsor you have people who have done it. Even the Coyote 5.0 has been done and we have factory support for the exhausts and such.
 
JacMac thanks for the correction on the Kasse engine. Charlie-are you even sure engine dimensions will fit SPF especially at firewall end?

Dave,
I have not done any research on the fit and function of the Kasse engine install. It appears this may be much more than I anticipated and may need to drop back and punt. Thanks for the input.

Charlie
 
A 385 series engine MAY fit but we do not support it, i.e. not headers, brackets, hoses etc. You would be totally on your own doing such an install. At least with an FE or Windsor you have people who have done it. Even the Coyote 5.0 has been done and we have factory support for the exhausts and such.

Rick,
Your comment about on line and factory support adds a element that I had not considered. My wants get into the way of common sense and therefore the bank account is depleted. Thanks!!
 
Charlie,
Windsor based engines are the most common SPF installation followed by FE engines. There are a lot of posts with photos on this website as well as a DVD by Lynn Miner of Windsor installation steps. I found that invaluable when I did my installation. Don't know what you're looking for in an engine, but between Windsors and FE's your options are vast.
 

Dwight

RCR GT 40 Gulf Livery 347 Eight Stack injection
Dart block 4.125" bore and 3.4" stroke & Eight Stack injection. about 500 hp and can rev to 7000.
What one of Keith Craft guys dyno one when we picked up another motor. Great motor for a GT 40.
Dwight

Crossville, Tn is about 3 hours from me.
 
Charlie,
Mine is an aluminum Shelby 427 FE squared to 482ci. 610hp and 600 foot pounds on the Keith Craft dyno. Fits like a glove. Call Dennis Olthoff because he is so close to your location. If you haven't ordered the car....you have a long time to think about what engine/builder you want.
 

Robert S.

GT40s Supporter
Please provide some feedback, all are appreciated.

There are two main highways that lead to an engine install: Roush and other well known custom and crate engine builders. Roush builds crate engines with only some custom capabilites. The main pro to using Roush is the engine comes to you ready for a GT40 install.

I elected to go all custom with my Windsor 427 build. Once I received the engine, I became mired down a bit with ordering all the other parts needed: Quicktime bellhousing, front FEAD (Front End Accessory Drive), special oil pan, and a number of other specialized parts I was fortunate enough to have long since forgotten.

I suggest before you pull the trigger with a custom or crate engine builder other than Roush, that you collect all pertinent information on all compatible GT40 parts you will need for your install, and if time is important, order them in advance of receiving your engine.

I have negative issues with Roush, but I'll leave them behind for now because my engine and engine components were custom and new to Roush, and thus they were slowed down significantly. It would be fair to say they did refund my $20k deposit promptly when requested. That experience delayed the enjoyment of having an operational GT40 by 18 weeks, which included some weeks to locate new engine builder.

Whatever you may think or believe now about how long you are willing to spend on an engine install, once you lay out the big bucks for the buggy, and wait what seems like years for it, your attitude may change from being the most patient human to having less than zero patience, or not.

If matching your MKII with the big block engine is important to you for historic correctness and all that goes with that, then go for the big block. If you are seeking torque and h.p., along with less engine weight, then go with the 427W, and you can easily make over 600 lbs of torque, and at least 750 h.p. with a naturally aspirated 8,000 rpm engine. However, the cons of Roush is their self-imposed limitation to around 576 h.p., and 6200 rpm.

Good luck with your project, and you will be best served by lengthy pre-purchase analysis and careful planning. Robert
 
Limited to ONLY 576 hp? I should think, at that point, your limitations are traction and access to frequent changes of underwear ! On a serious note, will the transaxle in question be reliable above that figure?
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Charlie --

You might find these useful, if only indirectly. The second document, although intended for an owner who did not do the original install, can be read "intellectually backwards" to infer the installation process.

View attachment SPF GT40 Decision Points.pdf

View attachment Superformance GT40 Drivetrain Removal.pdf

I would definitely recommend against any engine or transaxle choice that is not within the normal scope of the official SPF-supplied versions (ie 289/302, Windsor, FE). If you are a beginner this is not a place to "get creative". Do it by the book.

If you choose an FE, make sure the supplied fire wall arrangement is going to clear the water pump. Since my roller was a 351 kit, I don't know what the factory supplies to solve that problem. What I do know is that in my case and a friend's case who bought an FE roller, the extended aluminum firewall supplied by Olthoff specifically for this purpose required modification.

Also, the (AFAIK) factory-supplied FE transmission mount is kind of a joke and calls for an additional support at the extreme rear. This is fundamentally because the ZF transaxle has mounting ears a couple inches too far to the rear for use with an FE.

As much as it pains me to say this, since a primary point of superiority of the Superformance product is its adherence to historical accuracy, the last two points illustrate the fact that the easy way out is to use a Windsor-based motor. I don't regret the approach I took, but if I had it to do over again and I were primarily interested in getting it done and on the road, I would go the Windsor route.

And regarding engine choices, beware of the common tendency to go overboard with power output. This is just throwing money after the right to brag and to die young. Ken Miles won Le Mans with under 500 HP; it makes no sense whatsoever to expect more than that for use on the street, and the chassis, drivetrain and tires are only barely capable of transmitting that much.

Of course the other way to get it done and on the road its to let Olthoff or Lee Holman do it, in which case you are free to choose an FE with no negative personal repercussions other than financial ones. In proportion to the cost of the roller itself, FE vs Windsor represents a small amount.

Speaking of Lee Holman, note in other posts his recent completion of a magnificent SPF-based recreation of P1046. So if you are considering a professional install, be sure to talk to him. He's a delight to work with and you will end up with a car built by guys who worked on them "in the day". He also builds great motors at competitive prices and so can be a "one stop shop" completely accountable for the entire result.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/all-gt40/40960-h-m-le-mans-mkii-replica-nz.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/superfor...man-moody-p-2289-le-mans-p-1046-clone-nz.html
 
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Robert S.

GT40s Supporter
Limited to ONLY 576 hp? I should think, at that point, your limitations are traction and access to frequent changes of underwear ! On a serious note, will the transaxle in question be reliable above that figure?

Big Al,

The power one chooses for their vehicle should be theirs to make. If historic heritage of a classic car is important, then the power that existed during the subject era might be a good choice. If one is going to track or race their car, then maximizing power to a reasonable level might be prudent.

In-between those two extremes are some with a desire to have reasonable maximum power available, and would like to have that power listed on their showcard, or would like to have it because for the first 50-years of their life they could not have ever afforded such power, nor could their car have been granted lifetime smog exemption. Remain wary of those who criticize others who desire more power than they desired or could afford, while they claim those with more power are simply braggards.

For many of those with 300 h.p. engines a 750 h.p. engine is outrageous. Ironically, many of those with 750 h.p. might consider a 1200 h.p. twin turbo engine outrageous. In addition, the many decades OLD gold standard of 500 h.p. has long since been replaced by the reality of MANY standard showroom ready cars that possess 650 h.p., like the 2013 Mustangs as but one example, and the Dodge Viper as another. The 2014 Vetts, specifically the Z06 (650 h.p. na), and the ZR1 (750 h.p. fi) will set another standard for what is now NORMAL or TYPICAL stock showroom performance car power. The current gold standard for reasonable h.p. is around 650, and no longer 500.

As for matters such as traction, that question varies with the type of driving individuals plan to accomplish. For tracking, lateral traction is most important over acceleration traction, while for street racing and quarter mile activities, acceleration traction is paramount. A 15” Avon hand grooved racing slick mounted to a 14” wide rim and 14.3" of tread on the ground, with the softest of six choices of rubber hardness (A-15) will provide more than ample traction for a 750 h.p. 645 tq. engine. That being said, a crazy person could spin those tires if that was their focus, as with revving the engine to 5k and popping the clutch.

There are other individuals who desire to drive to car shows, take scenic pleasure drives, and never race their cars. They may on occasion initiate a high “G” pull on a freeway on-ramp, or elsewhere, but they don’t need to brag, and their transmission, double racing clutch, and other vehicle components will easily endure those events and beyond.

The experience of the pull, coupled with the awesome sound, feeds the soul with excitement, and one need not brag or boast, and most onlookers encourage and enjoy such events nearly as much as the driver. Those numerous pleasurable aspects are apparently unknown and not desirable to the putt putt crowd. But then, to each their own, and that's what it should be all about.

"your limitations are traction and access to frequent changes of underwear!"


Since the advent of Depends, I no longer make pit stops for such things :laugh:
 
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