Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Cam change
- Thread starter P2164
- Start date
Let me see......I might have access to a set from a car that is getting an original set of pipes. I'll PM you when I know for sure.
I also am a fan of a 302 based engine and no more than 475 HP, still more than the period cars had in most cases.
Howard Jones
Supporter
Here's what I think you are saying. No or very little grip at speeds usually run on the street if you give it the boot, even just a little. Far too much power to really drive the car hard at the track and not scare yourself to the point it's not fun anymore.
You can't fix those with more tire. It will just break things or make it faster. So I think you have a good sellable motor........to someone who wants what you don't. Sell it. Build a 351 with a stock stroke crank, hyd roller cam, 10 to 1 compression, and think about changing the diff final ratio to about 3.5.
That motor is worth two of the type/spec I am suggesting. You might just be able to do the diff ratio change AND the new motor without spending much more than you can get for the engine.
Something like this with a point more compression and just a bit more cam would do it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp11c/overview/make/ford
By the way, you are right, that's way too much power for a street car at 2500 pounds on street tires. Good adult thinking there buddy.
By the way do you have limited slip and what is the CR on that 427 you have.
You can't fix those with more tire. It will just break things or make it faster. So I think you have a good sellable motor........to someone who wants what you don't. Sell it. Build a 351 with a stock stroke crank, hyd roller cam, 10 to 1 compression, and think about changing the diff final ratio to about 3.5.
That motor is worth two of the type/spec I am suggesting. You might just be able to do the diff ratio change AND the new motor without spending much more than you can get for the engine.
Something like this with a point more compression and just a bit more cam would do it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp11c/overview/make/ford
By the way, you are right, that's way too much power for a street car at 2500 pounds on street tires. Good adult thinking there buddy.
By the way do you have limited slip and what is the CR on that 427 you have.
I am watching this thread with some interest as I've always believed some owners shoot far too high on HP as bragging rights, and then have no idea what they are letting themselves in for in the real world.
Monster HP and torque from domestic blocks is a unique American invention. Here in Europe, before the advent of such luxuries, we have had to get the most out of poorly constructed low capacity motors and go on a diet, at least in the competition and fast street world.
I have tried both and like both approaches. I also really like turbocharging and the potential it brings for pleasing both sides of the theory at one and the same time, but I tip my hat to to Jack for manning up and admitting that there is such a thing as too much motor for a particular car, especially the GT40 which was designed with a sub 5 litre motor in mind.
I am of the opinion that although the MKII Ford GT was successful on the race track with the torque monster 427, as such it was never asked to run on the road as well. For that reason, I still think a well thought out 302 motor can give you the very best street experience and some oomph for track day / time trial stuff and you will learn what makes it tick a lot quicker than mashing your right foot down every now and then. 450 hp in a (relatively) light mid engined car? Ye Gods, what's not to like?
I always found it very rewarding to wring out a small block in a well balanced chassis and I would do the same today, especially as there is now an amazing amount of Ford and aftermarket performance parts available compared with 25 years ago when I was a tarmac tearaway.
In the meantime, I will continue to follow Jack's quest for sanity with a great deal of interest.
Monster HP and torque from domestic blocks is a unique American invention. Here in Europe, before the advent of such luxuries, we have had to get the most out of poorly constructed low capacity motors and go on a diet, at least in the competition and fast street world.
I have tried both and like both approaches. I also really like turbocharging and the potential it brings for pleasing both sides of the theory at one and the same time, but I tip my hat to to Jack for manning up and admitting that there is such a thing as too much motor for a particular car, especially the GT40 which was designed with a sub 5 litre motor in mind.
I am of the opinion that although the MKII Ford GT was successful on the race track with the torque monster 427, as such it was never asked to run on the road as well. For that reason, I still think a well thought out 302 motor can give you the very best street experience and some oomph for track day / time trial stuff and you will learn what makes it tick a lot quicker than mashing your right foot down every now and then. 450 hp in a (relatively) light mid engined car? Ye Gods, what's not to like?
I always found it very rewarding to wring out a small block in a well balanced chassis and I would do the same today, especially as there is now an amazing amount of Ford and aftermarket performance parts available compared with 25 years ago when I was a tarmac tearaway.
In the meantime, I will continue to follow Jack's quest for sanity with a great deal of interest.
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Yes on the limited slip, its a M1 ZF, 12 to 1 if my memory serves me correctly. I run avons, had Yokohama's before and was ready to sell the car before Dennis said buy the avons, they did a great deal to straighten out wheel spin but still on cold days it will bite you if your accelerating hard in 3, just forget 1st and 2sd also unless your on a good roll on, I'm not the driver most of you are, just want a kick in the ass without the bite.
I like the coyote engine also, very streetable in the my friends new BOSS mustang, still maybe a tad to much for a 2300lb car.
Still will call crane cams to get there input, I have a lot of money invested in a good motor, but would like to tame it down as I said.
Thanks Keith, as they say age has wisdom, the older I get the more I realize how much I want to stick around for a few more years.
I like the coyote engine also, very streetable in the my friends new BOSS mustang, still maybe a tad to much for a 2300lb car.
Still will call crane cams to get there input, I have a lot of money invested in a good motor, but would like to tame it down as I said.
Thanks Keith, as they say age has wisdom, the older I get the more I realize how much I want to stick around for a few more years.
I really like the specs on the Coyote especially for a GT40 but, it would be a shame to acquire a "continuation" car with the expense that implies and put a non period motor in it, quite apart from the chassis mods I believe you may be into (headers etc) but I have no actual data on that personally.
Jack, like Keith I read this thread with interest. Not because I plan on putting a massive motor in my car anytime soon but I too have often heard "there is no replacement for displacement." But, many a Cobra driver I've spoken with (both original and replica's) have told me the 289 was always a better car to drive then the 427. Bigger isn't always better.
My engine puts out 430 HP and 440 ft lbs of torque and its a handfull for me but it certainly knows how to lift her skirts and run like the devil when aksed. I really can't imagine 500+ plus in a 40 but if you've got the skills I guess.....
The other "pucker" factor lets call it is, my balls just aren't as BIG as they use to be and knowing when to say when comes in to play.
As stated will read with interest.
My engine puts out 430 HP and 440 ft lbs of torque and its a handfull for me but it certainly knows how to lift her skirts and run like the devil when aksed. I really can't imagine 500+ plus in a 40 but if you've got the skills I guess.....
The other "pucker" factor lets call it is, my balls just aren't as BIG as they use to be and knowing when to say when comes in to play.
As stated will read with interest.
Like Keith, I applaud you for admitting how scary this car can be with too much HP and/or torque. I'm sure Dennis can handle it on the track. I'm equally sure I can't. Some of your similar posts previously turned me from a 351/427 to a straight 302/306.
I think comp cams can help you a lot. As I said earlier, that is a standard grind comp cam for oval track racing at an rpm range of 5800-7800. Absolutely not what you're looking for. They should be able to help out.
I think comp cams can help you a lot. As I said earlier, that is a standard grind comp cam for oval track racing at an rpm range of 5800-7800. Absolutely not what you're looking for. They should be able to help out.
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Cam swap would be the least expensive, I have a lot of money invested in this engine. Correct me if I'm wrong but where not the 427 of the original MK2 only 450 HP?
Steve I never ran the carbs on this engine in my car, the deck lid would not close because of the added height of the 351W block. I sold them and bought TWM throttle bodies which fits perfectly. Sorry I didn't answer this before.
Steve I never ran the carbs on this engine in my car, the deck lid would not close because of the added height of the 351W block. I sold them and bought TWM throttle bodies which fits perfectly. Sorry I didn't answer this before.
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
Ha! That brings back memories of when my son went to graduation prom in one of my 12 cylinder cars, I put a throttle lock on the throttle cable so his size 12 foot couldn't get carried away, time flys that was 20 years ago. Yep that would work but still would bug the crap out of me, with limited pedal movement.
I'm calling crane cams tomorrow, will post what they send me.
Once again, this is my personal preference, there are many of you that have the ability to handle this amount of power or more, I'm not one of them. Some of my friends on this forum have that ability, I profess I do not. Open road racing is my thing, drive against the clock which doesn't mean passing the guy in front of you.
Jack,
As you know I have the 351W as you do. Mine is less cu. in., coming in at around 400. My internals are a little different also.
Eagle 3.85 stroker crank and internally balanced.
Comp XE 282 hydraulic roller cam with 1.6:1 roller rockers.
AFR 205 heads
TWM 8 port F.I.
Moroso electric water pump.
FAST ignition with locked out distributor
What I like about mine is the internal balance. Expensive but worth it in the vibration dept. Also have it solid mount to the frame. I also like the Comp cam, adds just the right amount of umph and don't have to worry about valve lash. The 205s I can't say enough about. They breathe wonderfully(tops in their class). I ported the intake manifold to match the heads. The Felpro gaskets were a dead on fit to the heads, so that made doing the intake an easy job. Just have to be careful with the cooling jackets near by on the bottom. I left the 930 gears alone and with 335sx15 on the rear(Nitto drag radials) the tires will break loose in 1st with just accelleration and a little in second, allows the engine to do the work it was made for. The acceleration on this car is more than I have ever experienced and will have to learn about corner exits in order to keep it on the track. Plan some parking lot trips to test it out and get a feel for it, but straight line is unbelievable(at least to me that is).
My vote is to destroke the engine. Maybe down to stock. Put in a milder cam(hydraulic lifters) and get some taller gears. Highway speeds(70) will lower the rpms to around 2200-2500. Then you will have the best of both worlds. Cruising will be enjoyable and you will have the torque and H.P. when you want it.
Bill
As you know I have the 351W as you do. Mine is less cu. in., coming in at around 400. My internals are a little different also.
Eagle 3.85 stroker crank and internally balanced.
Comp XE 282 hydraulic roller cam with 1.6:1 roller rockers.
AFR 205 heads
TWM 8 port F.I.
Moroso electric water pump.
FAST ignition with locked out distributor
What I like about mine is the internal balance. Expensive but worth it in the vibration dept. Also have it solid mount to the frame. I also like the Comp cam, adds just the right amount of umph and don't have to worry about valve lash. The 205s I can't say enough about. They breathe wonderfully(tops in their class). I ported the intake manifold to match the heads. The Felpro gaskets were a dead on fit to the heads, so that made doing the intake an easy job. Just have to be careful with the cooling jackets near by on the bottom. I left the 930 gears alone and with 335sx15 on the rear(Nitto drag radials) the tires will break loose in 1st with just accelleration and a little in second, allows the engine to do the work it was made for. The acceleration on this car is more than I have ever experienced and will have to learn about corner exits in order to keep it on the track. Plan some parking lot trips to test it out and get a feel for it, but straight line is unbelievable(at least to me that is).
My vote is to destroke the engine. Maybe down to stock. Put in a milder cam(hydraulic lifters) and get some taller gears. Highway speeds(70) will lower the rpms to around 2200-2500. Then you will have the best of both worlds. Cruising will be enjoyable and you will have the torque and H.P. when you want it.
Bill
Mike
Lifetime Supporter
You guys beat me to it. I was going to suggest to just not push on the go pedal so hard. I say this with all due respect to everyone in this thread. Many singing the praises of a 302 are those that have a 302. I have one of those nasty 427s and I don't find it to be that scary at all. My pulley & tuned S/C Ford GT was waaay stronger down low than the 427. My suggestion… don't stab at the throttle. Roll on the throttle during shifts and coming out of the turns and save the floor board pedal presses for higher speed pulls on the straights.
PS I know so many "big" aka fat guys who ride sleds. They will spend thousands to shed 20lbs off their machines. I've always wondered why they don't just stop eating so much instead and save all the money for a new bicycle and a beach vacation in the Bahamas where they can run around shirtless with six pack abs?
PS I know so many "big" aka fat guys who ride sleds. They will spend thousands to shed 20lbs off their machines. I've always wondered why they don't just stop eating so much instead and save all the money for a new bicycle and a beach vacation in the Bahamas where they can run around shirtless with six pack abs?
Glenn B.
Lifetime Supporter
I've got 611 HP and 604 ft lbs of torque in a Big Block FE. I found a starting sequence that makes this a very manageable car as long as I carefully follow the sequence every time I get in it:
1. Push in the Clutch
2. Engage Brain
3. Turn the Key
Works every time.
Other suggestion....lengthen your throttle cable so you only get partial opening with the pedal on the floor. I did that for my son when he first moved up from 80cc to 125cc in karts. Worked like a charm. It's a lot cheaper and you won't incur the costs you are contemplating and it will preserve the resale value of your car by keeping the big motor in it for the next potential buyer. Others may disagree: but horsepower sells.
1. Push in the Clutch
2. Engage Brain
3. Turn the Key
Works every time.
Other suggestion....lengthen your throttle cable so you only get partial opening with the pedal on the floor. I did that for my son when he first moved up from 80cc to 125cc in karts. Worked like a charm. It's a lot cheaper and you won't incur the costs you are contemplating and it will preserve the resale value of your car by keeping the big motor in it for the next potential buyer. Others may disagree: but horsepower sells.
Glenn B.
Lifetime Supporter
Jack,
To answer your history question, the original Big Block 427FE's in the GT40 MkIIA produced 485 hp and 475 ft. lbs of torque. The GT40 MkIIB (dual 4 bbl carbs) was producing 500hp and 470 ft. lbs. of torque. Remember, all of this power was being put down to the pavement through 1966 tire technology.
To answer your history question, the original Big Block 427FE's in the GT40 MkIIA produced 485 hp and 475 ft. lbs of torque. The GT40 MkIIB (dual 4 bbl carbs) was producing 500hp and 470 ft. lbs. of torque. Remember, all of this power was being put down to the pavement through 1966 tire technology.
Hi Jack looks like you have an interesting thread going. You might call or go by Keith Craft and ask them what they put in my car as they are close to you. This is what I found on my engine build sheet. It wasn't cheap but I couldn't be happier with the end product.
For those of us that need a distributor I would highly recommend the MSD E Curve as it doesn't require an external box and looks the part. It's also programmable with the turn of a few pots (digital switches) under the cap.
Engine Specs:
HP: 446 @ 6100 rpm
Torque: 428 @ 4700 rpm (lowest rpm shown on dyno sheet)
CID: 331
Block: New Boss 302
Heads: AFR 185
Manifold: Edelbrock dual plane air gap
Rods: ESP H beam
Crank: Eagle 4340
Rod Length: 5.4"
Cam: Crane TFS-51402001 Stage II Hyd Roller
Lift: 542/563
Duration: 224/232
Lobe Centers: 107 deg
Distributor: MSD E Curve
Carb: Quick Fuel Street Carb 680cfm
Flywheel: Ram Alum 157 tooth
Pan: Aviaid GT40
Rocker Arms: Scorpion 1.6
Really Jack, .672 lift? Where do you hide the pistons?
For those of us that need a distributor I would highly recommend the MSD E Curve as it doesn't require an external box and looks the part. It's also programmable with the turn of a few pots (digital switches) under the cap.
Engine Specs:
HP: 446 @ 6100 rpm
Torque: 428 @ 4700 rpm (lowest rpm shown on dyno sheet)
CID: 331
Block: New Boss 302
Heads: AFR 185
Manifold: Edelbrock dual plane air gap
Rods: ESP H beam
Crank: Eagle 4340
Rod Length: 5.4"
Cam: Crane TFS-51402001 Stage II Hyd Roller
Lift: 542/563
Duration: 224/232
Lobe Centers: 107 deg
Distributor: MSD E Curve
Carb: Quick Fuel Street Carb 680cfm
Flywheel: Ram Alum 157 tooth
Pan: Aviaid GT40
Rocker Arms: Scorpion 1.6
Really Jack, .672 lift? Where do you hide the pistons?
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Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
I know Mike you say just don't press your foot so hard, but easier said than done, and believe me when I say I have NEVER had my foot to the floor on this car while under power, maybe to check the if the throttle bodies opened all the way while sitting in the garage.
I will call crane cams this morning so they can have a laugh then report back here some results, I'm sure they have computer dyno where they can plug in numbers. The money factor says try the least expensive first and its the cam change. I truly believe that a mild cam will change this motor to a pussy cat. If they say its impossible I'll sell it take the proceeds and go for a small block like Richards car. If I had to do it all over again it would be a KC small block but of course have to put EFI and do away with the distributor just because thats my thing.
Bill my engine is Dart aluminum block internally balanced also just 427, do you have a dyno sheet on your engine?
If the MkIIs of yesteryear were making 500 HP and 470 torque with a higher ring and pinion gear, even they had to be more street-able than what I have and they were race cars driven by professional race car drivers. This engine makes 100 more ft lbs of torque and 200 lbs lighter and driven by an old guy.
I will call crane cams this morning so they can have a laugh then report back here some results, I'm sure they have computer dyno where they can plug in numbers. The money factor says try the least expensive first and its the cam change. I truly believe that a mild cam will change this motor to a pussy cat. If they say its impossible I'll sell it take the proceeds and go for a small block like Richards car. If I had to do it all over again it would be a KC small block but of course have to put EFI and do away with the distributor just because thats my thing.
Bill my engine is Dart aluminum block internally balanced also just 427, do you have a dyno sheet on your engine?
If the MkIIs of yesteryear were making 500 HP and 470 torque with a higher ring and pinion gear, even they had to be more street-able than what I have and they were race cars driven by professional race car drivers. This engine makes 100 more ft lbs of torque and 200 lbs lighter and driven by an old guy.
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Yes the Mk2's were BB, but as you say they were geared very differently. Figure it was a 4 speed box with 4th geared to go over 200. The lower gears were tall, it was all tall gearing for racing at lemans and speeds below 70 or so were irrelevant.
An aluminum 351 is a really nice "exotic" piece. A cam will certaily change things. But will the cam work with your heads, you can go hydraulic if you are rev limited to 6500 rpms anyway.
Destroking may require different rods etc. But if I were to build a 351 based motor it would be aluminum with twm as you have, and aroumd 400 Ci or less, so its a smooth rever. Considder that many a crate 302 these days is an iron 363 which is a lot of stroke, so a stock stroke big bore aluminun 351 is going to be better and smoother. To me if youa re not interested in racing this is the best setup for a GT40. Cant say i am an expert but did spend years thinkign through every possible configurtion.
The only reason I went to a short stroke big bore iron 302 was the possibility of vintage racing, and I do love the sound of a motor at 7k rpm. But for street an aluminum 351 of 400ci or less is the ideal ticket IMHO.
Plus if you keep solids then you ca rev to 7k or more, which would make sense of the 4.22 rear.
As an example for my 302 car the rear is a little shorter than "stock" at 4.0 1st through 3rd are taller than stock 4th stock and 5th shorter. This is based on the torque and rev range of my expected motor, with easy rev drops based on a track scenario.
From what I can see with a 4.22 rear and stock ratios your 1-3 gears are really short, 4th shortish and 5th still pretty tall for highway. Any motor from 450hp up is going to give a lot of pop and your limit in 1-3 is traction. If it were me and I were keeping the box, I would destroke and change cam on the aluminum 351 or go 302.
Either way to do a cam you are pulling the motor and its a lot of work, so why just stop at the cam. With your gears you want a motor where the peak of the powerband is moved a bit up in the rev range and the ability to rev, and a smooth linear ramp up so you can modulate well. A broader soother power delivery making the car way more driveable.
Basicaly a destrokes 351/427 or a worked 302 are not going to be hugely different, but an aluminum block 351 is a very cool exotic piece.
You only live once make th motor right for the car, why suffer with the worng thing. Destroke and re-cam and you are set. 3K in parts and some shop time.
An aluminum 351 is a really nice "exotic" piece. A cam will certaily change things. But will the cam work with your heads, you can go hydraulic if you are rev limited to 6500 rpms anyway.
Destroking may require different rods etc. But if I were to build a 351 based motor it would be aluminum with twm as you have, and aroumd 400 Ci or less, so its a smooth rever. Considder that many a crate 302 these days is an iron 363 which is a lot of stroke, so a stock stroke big bore aluminun 351 is going to be better and smoother. To me if youa re not interested in racing this is the best setup for a GT40. Cant say i am an expert but did spend years thinkign through every possible configurtion.
The only reason I went to a short stroke big bore iron 302 was the possibility of vintage racing, and I do love the sound of a motor at 7k rpm. But for street an aluminum 351 of 400ci or less is the ideal ticket IMHO.
Plus if you keep solids then you ca rev to 7k or more, which would make sense of the 4.22 rear.
As an example for my 302 car the rear is a little shorter than "stock" at 4.0 1st through 3rd are taller than stock 4th stock and 5th shorter. This is based on the torque and rev range of my expected motor, with easy rev drops based on a track scenario.
From what I can see with a 4.22 rear and stock ratios your 1-3 gears are really short, 4th shortish and 5th still pretty tall for highway. Any motor from 450hp up is going to give a lot of pop and your limit in 1-3 is traction. If it were me and I were keeping the box, I would destroke and change cam on the aluminum 351 or go 302.
Either way to do a cam you are pulling the motor and its a lot of work, so why just stop at the cam. With your gears you want a motor where the peak of the powerband is moved a bit up in the rev range and the ability to rev, and a smooth linear ramp up so you can modulate well. A broader soother power delivery making the car way more driveable.
Basicaly a destrokes 351/427 or a worked 302 are not going to be hugely different, but an aluminum block 351 is a very cool exotic piece.
You only live once make th motor right for the car, why suffer with the worng thing. Destroke and re-cam and you are set. 3K in parts and some shop time.
Have you considered fitting restrictors to the intakes? This is how most power restricted formula racing limits power output. You would still need to change the cam though.
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