Flat Plane Crank LS1

[Scott]

The Coyote Boss 302 motor goes to 7500 for 450hp. That’s not too bad for a V8, and not far from your 8000 RPM goal, and no rebuilding required. From what info I could find the Mustang guys running this motor have taken it to 7500 repeatedly and they are still running strong. Too bad it’s not closer $6500 than $11k.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[Troy Truglio]

The coyote engine is nice, but not what I am looking for. I want a flat plane crank engine so it has the sound and scream I want. I see the 430 at the track and it sounds so amazing and that is what I want.

I will look into the newer used ls engines. Shoot, if a bran new ls3 with ecu and harness is like 8k I would imagine they should be around half or less.

 

[Mesa]

All us nutjobs are the same. I HAVE a Ferrari 360 engine and gearbox in the garage, and I oiginally was going to stick it my SLC. Until I realized I wanted more HP than it was going to produce. I Ended up with a World Products LS7X in the car and the Ferrari sits waiting for some love.

The engine is very small in actual size and will fit the chassis with NO problem. There is at least one guy on this forum that can get the electronics worked out for it, or if you are tech savy a Megasquirt will run it. I wish I knew that before I bailed on the idea.

But then this whole process is learning isnt it? When we are done we know so much more than when we started.

Cheers.

 

[Troy Truglio]

I have tuned 4cyl a lot in the past and a 4cyl stand alone can run a flat plane crank easy. So that is good and the aem 4 is like $800 if the stock can not do it.

 

[Troy Truglio]

Also. I really think we can just splice some injector wires and coil wires. Then just use one of the programs to tune the stock ecu. It might just be better to go with the aem though.

 

[Alex]

Remember, being different costs money and breaks a lot, which equals more money. You can't rev it up to 8500 and not have durability issues.

 

[Rich E.]

L33 is the way to go. Better heads and piston/pin design over the LS1. Smaller displacement but not by much. Get a Holley HP to run it on E85. You can run ALOT of compression for more HP and it'll run 15-20 degrees cooler than on gas.

 

[Troy Truglio]

Remember, being different costs money and breaks a lot, which equals more money. You can't rev it up to 8500 and not have durability issues.

I agree with that and different costs money and will probably be in the crate motor cost when done, but it should be more of what I want the car to be when done. Maybe rev to 8000 I stead .

 

[Troy Truglio]

Here is where I get confused on what to choose. The larger bore would be better for more displacement, but cost more.

I am going replace the crank, con rods and light weight pistons and all items forged. I will need a custom cam to my specs for the flat plane crank and high rpms. For high rpms I need better Valve springs and Ti retainers. Solid roller cam conversion with light weight rockers. I will also look at light weight good Valves.

So when doing all this work I will port and polish. Now all this costs money and needs to be replaced. So of a newer ls3 will cost 3-4k more to start I am thinking it might better money spent to get an ls1 and spent the money on really good valve train parts instead then I can higher without as much worry.

Is their a fundamental flow in an ls1 versus the others? Or am I just replacing all the items anyway so just get an ls1 and build away.

 

[Josh]

In for the win. You are preaching to the choir..........sound is paramount.

 

[Dave]

In for the win. You are preaching to the choir..........sound is paramount.

True dat
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAuA54ynnKE&list=FLLNXQwosC2gL7RCmTZYtPAQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video]THREE ROTOR - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Scott]

That sounded interesting. At low idle it kind of sounded like a TF dragster and at high throttle it sounded like a street bike. Maybe its just my speakers.

 

[Merim]

just got home . If you are going to replace the rotating assembly 100% at the beginning, then don't buy a complete engine, you can get a used aluminum block for a few hundred dollars. There is no point in spending 2k+ for a running ls1 that you will only be keeping the block. The recovery costs of selling the stock rotating assembly and heads is peanuts. (e.g. stock 241 ls1 heads go for $100-150 max)

If you want to take a motor, spend little money and have it running and usable and driveable, get a L33. spend $150 on a ls6 cam, upgrade the valve springs, $150 and get some hardened pushrods and you'll have a motor you can take to 7k easily and will beat a stock ls1 easily. You'll have some fun before you plunk down the 7-10k it's going to take to create the flat plane monster. Plus, you can always sell off the l33 later and recoup 60-70% of your costs easily if not more.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is all the other recommended options will set you back 8-10k at least and you may not get what you want out of it in the long run, and you'll lose a lot more on resale on the other parts vs. buying some used parts. Plus if you spend 8-10k just to tear it down and need another 8-10k you're out a lot more in the long run.

 

[James]

If sound is paramount, and you are looking into spending a pretty penny. Why not have something that is set up as is.

- BMW V10 (pretty sure this will fit)
- Merc V12 (That's what the Zonda has, tell me that doesn't sound exotic)

I would as Fran if the W8 from a VW would fit, or better yet, a W12, heck it's only 100lbs heavier than an LS, and makes something like 500 out of the box.

 

[Troy Truglio]

I think the sound and high reving V8 would be fun. I like the V10 also, but I think would be more money in the end and the electronics might be a beast and cost alot. Most EMS will not run a V10 so stock is needed and might be an issue. Aslo, who has a flat plane crank LS1 V8 5.0L. I am crazy and this really proves it. An LS376/480hp would make more hp and be less money, but not what I want so I have issues.

I think I will get a bare block and heads since I am not going to use any of the rest. I still would need the fuel rails, injectors, intake, and TB so I will see what I can find. I could get a new wiring harness and ecu stock, but if I do that I could get a stand alone AEM EMS-4 for like $900 instead of hacking up the stock ecu. The AEM infinity 8 looks really nice, but costs like $2k so we will see there.

There is really good news. I called around and found a place that knows there stuff when it comes to cranks and only makes custom cranks now. They have made flat plane cranks before a bunch of times, but not for the LS1 yet, but have made a lot of LS1 cranks. I talked to him about bore the stroke and will use his suggestions on this. He said he could make the crank all the way down to 19lbs, but as a flat plane crank it would vibrate at that so he suggested having it a little heavier so he can ballance a good portion of the vibrations. He said to also make the bottom diam 1.889 and use a honda bearing as it will be better. He is also one of the only people to have acutally built a flat plane crank I know of so I asked how bad it is. He said it is like a 4cyl engine if done right and we will do it right. So this is all good news for me and some of the main hurdles are over.

Cost will be in the 6-10K range depending on what I spend on the valvetrain and other items. I am going to try to stay within a target budget range.

I think the engine might make in the 500hp range so it can be right where I would like it to be. Anyone want to do some calculations? It will be 3.9 bore 3.187 stroke for 4998cc. So a nice 5.0L engine that can rev and sound like a mini F1 engine in an SLC. Now we are talking.

For the items
Crank- custom forged 3.187 stroke and 1.889 bearing diam
con rods- not sure yet, maybe Carillo if I have money, but the Eagle H beams have the correct size and might be fine for me with 500hp
Pistons- probably JE, but maybe mahle or other forged
Comp ratio- in the 10:1 or so range. Maybe 10.5:1
Cam- mabe 270ish duration and not sure on lift yet
solid roller lifters
roller rocker arms
dual valve springs
ti reaters
lighter vavles, prob ferrea
port and polish
MLS head gasket

Here we go.
Troy

 

[Josh]

Dave.........holy crap, never heard a 3 rotor before. As was said, it literally sounds like a sport bike when revving --- crazy.

Troy.........when will this craziness begin? You know I will be watching this like a hawk, lol! The S85 V10 out of the M5 is an amazing engine, but upon further digging, would be a very costly hassle. Autobionics swapped one into an Ultima GTR and documented it. It was very, very, very involved as the engine has many trick features. So, if you can get the LS1 in for 10k or under, you have a winner......as long as it doesn't explode within a month, lol.

 

[Troy Truglio]

I think the sound and high reving V8 would be fun. I like the V10 also, but I think would be more money in the end and the electronics might be a beast and cost alot. Most EMS will not run a V10 so stock is needed and might be an issue.

I think I will get a bare block and heads since I am not going to use any of the rest. I still would need the fuel rails, injectors, intake, and TB so I will see what I can find. I could get a wiring harness, but if I do that I could get a stand alone AEM EMS-4 for like $900.

There is really good news. I called around and found a place that knows there stuff when it comes to cranks and only makes custom cranks now. They have made flat plane cranks before, but not for the LS1 yet, but have made a lot of LS1 cranks. I talked to him about bore the stroke and will use his suggestions on this. He said he could make the crank all the way down to 19lbs, but as a flat plane crank it would vibrate at that so he suggested having it a little heavier so he can ballance a good portion of the vibrations. He said to also make the bottom diam 1.889 and use a honda bearing as it will be better. He is also one of the only people to have acutally built a flat plane crank I know of so I asked how bad it is. He said it is like a 4cyl engine if done right and we will do it right. So this is all good news for me and some of the main hurdles are over.

Cost will be in the 6-9K range depending on what I spend on the valvetrain and other items. I am going to try to stay within a target budget range.

I think the engine might make in the 500hp range so it can be right where I would like it to be. It will be 3.9 bore 3.187 stroke for 4998cc. So a nice 5.0L engine that can rev and sound like a mini F1 engine in an SLC. Now we are talking.

For the items
Crank- custom forged 3.187 stroke and 1.889 bearing diam
con rods- not sure yet, maybe Carillo if I have money, but the Eagle H beams have the correct size and might be fine for me with 500hp
Pistons- probably JE
Comp ratio- in the 10:1 or so range. Maybe 10.5:1

 

[Troy Truglio]

Troy.........when will this craziness begin? You know I will be watching this like a hawk, lol! The S85 V10 out of the M5 is an amazing engine, but upon further digging, would be a very costly hassle. Autobionics swapped one into an Ultima GTR and documented it. It was very, very, very involved as the engine has many trick features. So, if you can get the LS1 in for 10k or under, you have a winner......as long as it doesn't explode within a month, lol.

I have a spread sheet and did both at lower costs and higher and the range is 7-12K so maybe in the 8-9K range when done. I was going to wait to do all the big engine and all and I get it just running, but I think I will just do it a bit slower on the build and do the way I want the first time. So spring time it should be running and read to go.

I am going to look at ordering the crank in a week or two. It takes them 4 months to make it so winter time engine build. I will start collecting items to do the engine build now. I need to figure out the valvetrain items next as the bottom is sorted out now. Thought on items to rev to 9K? I say 9K just to be safe as I will probablly rev to 8-8500.

As for the engine I might just get an LS2 GTO engine becuase I need the acc items in those locations anyway and might be able to get one pretty cheap. I see one now for like 1K. I think I need the entire engine now instead of a bare block to get all the little things, like oil, coils, wires, sensors, oil pan, water pump, intake, injectors, fuel rails, ect. If I tried to buy each one I might be a lot more, maybe. So I might have a 5.2L engine now. WOW, I just made 4% more power.

 

[Josh]

^You need to start a build thread when you start the whole process. 8,000 rpm would be plenty high. Did the builder you spoke to have any comments in regards to his thoughts on reliability?

 

[Alex]

I wish you the best of luck with it, but this is really starting to sound like my engine build .... cranks that take 5months to make, parts that can only be purchased from 1 specific place, nothing that's easily available or is easy to assemble, and 2 3/4yrs later no engine.