GT40s.com Paddock GUNS thread

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Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Let's make sure we get our facts straight.

Justice John Paul Stevens was a lifelong Republican, a moderately conservative justice of the Seventh Circuit, and then a centrist on the Supreme Court. You calling him far left just shows a complete ignorance of the history, balance and makeup of the Court.

Also, you are in a minority. Bigly so. Most Americans (I posted the comprehensive data Gallup has collected over the years) at this time (a) do not own guns and (b) want more gun control.

If anything, the positions that I take, Rod takes, Nick and Doug are mainstream and moderate. None of us want to ban guns entirely. We do want to limit access to some of them.

You are the extremist in this thread, who would allow Uncle Bob, felons and toddlers t ohave bazookas.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Let's make sure we get our facts straight.

Justice John Paul Stevens was a lifelong Republican, a moderately conservative justice of the Seventh Circuit, and then a centrist on the Supreme Court. You calling him far left just shows a complete ignorance of the history, balance and makeup of the Court.

Also, you are in a minority. Bigly so. Most Americans (I posted the comprehensive data Gallup has collected over the years) at this time (a) do not own guns and (b) want more gun control.

If anything, the positions that I take, Rod takes, Nick and Doug are mainstream and moderate. None of us want to ban guns entirely. We do want to limit access to some of them.

You are the extremist in this thread, who would allow Uncle Bob, felons and toddlers t ohave bazookas.


Yeah, yeah, yeah...I'm also the devil incarnate. I know, I know.

Now, answer the question I posed to you regarding the 2nd Amend: How is it that "no" in a rape situation MEANS "no"...but, "no" as used in the context of the 2nd Amend ("NO law infringing") means "whatever, dude"?

While you're at it, give me the EXACT wording of any gun control law that would NOT:

CONTRAVENE, VIOLATE, transgress, break, breach, disobey, DEFY, flout, fly in the face of, disregard, ignore, LIMIT, RESTRICT, CURB, CHECK, overstep, exceed, infract, ERODE, PREEMPT, SUPPLANT, DISPLACE, CUT OUT, USURP the right to keep and bear provided in the 2nd Amend.

(Edit: You might also 'splain to me how further unconstitutionally infringing on the gun rights of law-abiding people will somehow mystically and magically change the behavior of crooks and loons. I've never quite been able to make that correlation...but then, I'm just a simple country boy who literally attended a 2 room country school...so...)

I'll wait...


BTW, Happy Easter, Sir. ;) ('mean it)
 
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Ron Earp

Admin
3. Your law will never work, it didn't for prohibition.

You will never know unless you try it.

Nick, you've got to pay attention in these discussions.

See, laws work just fine when the law supports a conservative position. For example, a law that banned abortion, that would absolutely work in all instances. There would be no more abortions, ever.

And, when a conservative position needs bolstering it's fine to ignore the US Constitution. For example, if you wanted to allow prayer in school (cause you know it not being there is the root of all our problems) then you can conveniently argue that the first amendment isn't about prayer in school. Also, when taking this position it is best to adhere to the mistaken belief that all the founding fathers were Christians, cause, well, it fits the narrative better.

But a law that would restrict access to firearms for say the mentally disabled? No, that law wouldn't work at all.

Got it? Carry on sir.
 
Nick, you've got to pay attention in these discussions.

See, laws work just fine when the law supports a conservative position. For example, a law that banned abortion, that would absolutely work in all instances. There would be no more abortions, ever.

And, when a conservative position needs bolstering it's fine to ignore the US Constitution. For example, if you wanted to allow prayer in school (cause you know it not being there is the root of all our problems) then you can conveniently argue that the first amendment isn't about prayer in school. Also, when taking this position it is best to adhere to the mistaken belief that all the founding fathers were Christians, cause, well, it fits the narrative better.

But a law that would restrict access to firearms for say the mentally disabled? No, that law wouldn't work at all.

Got it? Carry on sir.

Ron,

Thank you so much for that. :lol:

I am a practicing Christian although I need a lot more practicing as I am really not very good at it. I also have a brother in law who is a retired vicar, a nephew in law who has just been ordained as a vicar, the retired baby eating Bishop of Bath and Wells in the family and a mother who has a direct line to the Pope so I fully appreciate what you have said. OK the last bit about my mum is not strictly true but I am sure you get the gist of what I am saying, I keep score at Christmas ;)

As for carrying on, I have said a few times I would not post again on this subject, this time I am really really going to try not to. When you have those who are the judge jury and executioner deciding if what you say in response to their questions or challenges, (when your view is one they vehemently oppose) is correct, whatever you say is just going to be met with a closed mind, a deaf ear and a NO.

Warning contains a rude word. :eek:

.: - Little Britain - Computer says no - :. - YouTube

For what it is worth, and in my opinion, now is a good time to leave the debate for several very good reasons, firstly your post has literally made me laugh out loud, something which sadly rarely if ever happens to me in this debate, so I leave on a high :) Secondly I have learn't there are valid views on both sides of the debate, I just believe my sides views will produce a safer society for everyone in the US than the other sides views. Thirdly, I have found out things about your founding fathers, obviously their views often mentioned here, but also the fact they strongly believed in protecting you citizens right to protest, and those protests I believe may bring you a solution you need and deserve. It may take a miracle but miracles can happen.

God: Parting your soup is not a miracle, Bruce. It's a magic trick. A single mom who's working two jobs and still finds time to take her kid to soccer practice, that's a miracle. A teenager who says "no" to drugs and "yes" to an education, that's a miracle. People want me to do everything for them. But what they don't realize is *they* have the power. You want to see a miracle, son? Be the miracle.
 
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I don't think anyone posting here has either read the meaning of "keep and bare arms" so this might be a learing curve for some:

Meaning of "keep and bear arms" In Heller the majority rejected the view that the term "to bear arms" implies only the military use of arms:

Before addressing the verbs "keep" and "bear," we interpret their object: "Arms." The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity. Thus, the most natural reading of "keep Arms" in the Second Amendment is to "have weapons." At the time of the founding, as now, to "bear" meant to "carry." In numerous instances, "bear arms" was unambiguously used to refer to the carrying of weapons outside of an organized militia. Nine state constitutional provisions written in the 18th century or the first two decades of the 19th, which enshrined a right of citizens "bear arms in defense of themselves and the state" again, in the most analogous linguistic context – that "bear arms" was not limited to the carrying of arms in a militia. The phrase "bear Arms" also had at the time of the founding an idiomatic meaning that was significantly different from its natural meaning: "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight" or "to wage war." But it unequivocally bore that idiomatic meaning only when followed by the preposition "against,". Every example given by petitioners’ amici for the idiomatic meaning of "bear arms" from the founding period either includes the preposition "against" or is not clearly idiomatic. In any event, the meaning of "bear arms" that petitioners and Justice Stevens propose is not even the (sometimes) idiomatic meaning. Rather, they manufacture a hybrid definition, whereby "bear arms" connotes the actual carrying of arms (and therefore is not really an idiom) but only in the service of an organized militia. No dictionary has ever adopted that definition, and we have been apprised of no source that indicates that it carried that meaning at the time of the founding. Worse still, the phrase "keep and bear Arms" would be incoherent. The word "Arms" would have two different meanings at once: "weapons" (as the object of "keep") and (as the object of "bear") one-half of an idiom. It would be rather like saying "He filled and kicked the bucket" to mean "He filled the bucket and died."[172]

In a dissent, joined by Justices Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, Justice Stevens said:

The Amendment's text does justify a different limitation: the "right to keep and bear arms" protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia. Had the Framers wished to expand the meaning of the phrase "bear arms" to encompass civilian possession and use, they could have done so by the addition of phrases such as "for the defense of themselves".[176]
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Interesting article here -
London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News

Maybe they should outlaw knives?

Makes the case pretty convincing that the problem is not in the weapon - but in people’s disregard for life......

As is usually the case with you that's a complete misinterpretation of the data. That data is for one month. Historical data for the last decade shows Londons murder rate st about one third of New York's.

Get your facts straight.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
So, here's an example, for 2011 -- London's overall homicide rate is 1/3 of New Yorks, whether that murder was committed by guns, knives, spoons, overload of fake news, whatever.

How Safe Is London? | Londonist

Basically for every year I checked between 2000 and 2017, that's the case.

Now, here's what happens. London has a couple month spike in murders, and right wing/NRA news sources go bonkers that London passes New York in murders! It's not the guns!

Bullhockey. Complete and utter moronic, non critical thinking bullhockey.

And yeah, Hillary still doesn't have Parkinsons.

Good grief.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Chris, there is much to be said about Heller. The primary point in relation to what you posted is that for nearly 150 years prior to Heller, the Courts consistently interpreted the right to be a collective one, and not an individual one. Heller was a revolutionary departure from that. The nonsense that Larry and others here spout about this being some long standing right is simply incorrect. No one seriously believed the right was individual and not collective until the NRA started pushing that idea in the 70s.

And the conservative Chief Justice at the time said the following in response to that:

"The NRA's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is the greatest constitutional fraud ever prepretated on the American people." CJ Warren Burger.

Beyond that, Larry and crowd are selective in their reading of Heller. Well, that's being charitable because they've never read it.

In Heller, Scalia himself stated the following:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited [I.E. this shows that 90% of Larry's bs above is wrong]. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right

*****

So, what do we have here? We have Scalia interpreting the 2nd Amendment to mean reasonable regulation is ok. Felons can't own guns. The mentally infirm can't own guns. There can be gun free zones. There can be restrictions on the commercial sale of guns. And....ta da...the individual right to own guns is limited "to those in common use" at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. "Dangerous and unusual weapons" can be prohibited.

Scalia then goes on in the NEXT SENTENCE to effectively acknowledge an assault weapons ban would be constitutional, specifically calling out M-16s and noting they could be banned.

It would be wonderful if the gun nuts of the world would take 5 minutes and actually read Heller. They might not be as happy about as they are now, having on learned about it via what Sean Hannity says it says.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
HI JEFF

"You are the extremist in this thread, who would allow Uncle Bob, felons and toddlers t ohave bazookas."

I DON'T REMEMBER LARRY SAYING THAT..

He has repeatedly said there can be no law infringing the right to own guns. Over and over and over. The above is necessary implication of that completely incorrect position.

Now, he then claims that the constitution says felons have no right to bear arms. that's false. He just says it's "ridiculous" to suggest the thinks toddlers should have bazookas, but again, he given his absolutist reading of the 2nd, that is exactly the result he is advocating for.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I'm also the devil incarnate. I know, I know.

Now, answer the question I posed to you regarding the 2nd Amend: How is it that "no" in a rape situation MEANS "no"...but, "no" as used in the context of the 2nd Amend ("NO law infringing") means "whatever, dude"?


BTW, Happy Easter, Sir. ;) ('mean it)

No, you aren't the devil incarnate. You are just wrong, a lot.

Larry, if you can't see the difference between:

"No, I won't have sex with you."

and

"“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

I can't help. ONe of them is a clear, negative statement. The other is a clause that has had Americans debating its meaning and scope for 200 years.

Get a grip.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
No, you aren't the devil incarnate. You are just wrong, a lot.

Larry, if you can't see the difference between:

"No, I won't have sex with you."

and

"“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

I can't help. ONe of them is a clear, negative statement. The other is a clause that has had Americans debating its meaning and scope for 200 years.

Get a grip.




'Clever spin 'for effect', Jeff, but, let's use the SAME wording: "I shall not have sex with you" is a definitive "no"...whereas, "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed", is somehow ambiguous?

I submit it's not. "Shall not" means "shall not". 'Matters not in what context the phrase is used. There ought never to have been any debate at all over the "meaning and scope".

BTW, you'll notice The Founders did NOT say:"...the right of militia members to keep and bear..."; they said "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear." Not all of "the people" were militia members.
 
Sounds like a lot of bs when it is leagal in most states to own guns, to carry guns, to transport guns... Legal means legal.. I don't write the laws i just obey them..
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Chris, there is much to be said about Heller. The primary point in relation to what you posted is that for nearly 150 years prior to Heller, the Courts consistently interpreted the right to be a collective one, and not an individual one. Heller was a revolutionary departure from that. The nonsense that Larry and others here spout about this being some long standing right is simply incorrect. No one seriously believed the right was individual and not collective until the NRA started pushing that idea in the 70s.

And the conservative Chief Justice at the time said the following in response to that:

"The NRA's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is the greatest constitutional fraud ever prepretated on the American people." CJ Warren Burger.

Beyond that, Larry and crowd are selective in their reading of Heller. Well, that's being charitable because they've never read it.

In Heller, Scalia himself stated the following:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited [I.E. this shows that 90% of Larry's bs above is wrong]. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right

*****

So, what do we have here? We have Scalia interpreting the 2nd Amendment to mean reasonable regulation is ok. Felons can't own guns. The mentally infirm can't own guns. There can be gun free zones. There can be restrictions on the commercial sale of guns. And....ta da...the individual right to own guns is limited "to those in common use" at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. "Dangerous and unusual weapons" can be prohibited.

Scalia then goes on in the NEXT SENTENCE to effectively acknowledge an assault weapons ban would be constitutional, specifically calling out M-16s and noting they could be banned.

It would be wonderful if the gun nuts of the world would take 5 minutes and actually read Heller. They might not be as happy about as they are now, having on learned about it via what Sean Hannity says it says.


Your statements above confirm what I've stated repeatedly: namely that limits on gun rights exist SOLELY because of/thru/via judicial "i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n" of what The Founders wrote - as opposed to being based on specifically WHAT The Founders wrote.

E.g.: Explain to me how it's NOT an "infringement" on the right to keep and bear for government to say "you can carry over HERE...but you can't carry over THERE"..."you can carry IN THE OPEN, but you can't carry concealed - UNLESS you get government's permission and pay government a FEE"? Where did the FOUNDERS list any exceptions/prerequisites/conditions/qualifications, et al, that must be met before one can exercise his "right(?!)" to keep and bear and then outline specifically when/HOW one may exercise it once those conditions are met? They DIDN'T.

What's to PREVENT government from 'regulating' the 2nd Amend completely out of existence thru "i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n"? For instance, take that, "carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons"", blather above! What "weapon" ISN'T "dangerous"...and just who is going to decide what constitutes an "unusual" one?

Talk about a "slippery slope".

...and you tell me I need to "get a grip"?
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
As is usually the case with you that's a complete misinterpretation of the data. That data is for one month. Historical data for the last decade shows Londons murder rate st about one third of New York's.

Get your facts straight.

Jeff - there you go again.
BBC thought it worthy to print and show a graph that clearly illustrates an upward trend in violence and that trend has exceeded the violence in New York. I found it as an interesting article. I submitted the link here for consumption along with brief commentary that basically aligns the death rate with behavior rather than the weapon of choice.
Clearly, your opinion and mine are not the same and neither of us is about to alter the opinion of the other.

Now will should that aforementioned trend continue - what will that indicate? Could be that things are maybe not as rosey in the UK as one might have thought.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Randy, there you go again. Being completely wrong about something and then just claiming it's an opinion or something. This isn't an opinion.

Seriously, look at what you are saying. You are saying the following:

1. For ten years, London got 1/3 of the snow of New York.
2. In the last month, London got six inches of snow and New York got five inches.
3. Holy s***! Look, London gets more snow than NY -- let's base policy off of that.

That's not an opinion. That's just stupid. It's not interesting in any way in regards to the gun debate in the US. Concluding that guns don't have anything do to with the overall higher homicide rate in New York than London -- 3x as high on average over the last decade -- because of a one month spike that makes you feel warm and fuzzy is silly.

I'm beginning to think basic critical thinking skills should be a prerequisite to voting.
 
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