GT40's or GT's running on E85

[Charles]

It's possible as more CNG stations and Bio-fuel stations start coming on-line. Then it is only a matter of time for Hydrogen to become a key player.

 

[Charles]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

Well I have just been reading up on alternative fuels to fossil fuels and curious on how this would work on a GT40 kit build. I used to use Ethanol in my Muscle cars and I never had an issue...but they were also carburated to.

 

[Jac Mac]

Well they slowly swapped us off of leaded gas and into unleaded gas. Now it seems as this is the direction that the Auto manufactures are driving us.

Isnt that where you are going wrong-shouldnt you as the consumer be telling them what you want to drive?

The auto manufacturers are being pushed into most of this stuff by political pressure. Look back over the last 30 years of engine tech and remember how many blind alleys we were led into by the industry just in valve seats/chamber shape etc alone. In the mid sixties we had motors in the big three that had decent squish areas, by 1972 we were told they were no good and 'open' combustion chambers, radiused/beveled pistons were the best, 1980 odd and -gosh,golly,gee whiz, a miracle and squish is (re) discovered and found to play a major part in complete combustion.

Similar deal with exhaust valves/seats- in the early sixties it was common to pull the cyl head & grind valves approx every 40000 miles, then they upped the lead % and things worked great ( exhaust system rotted out fast, but did that matter ). Then oop's the lead is bad, hard seats reqd, so we go thru a decade or so of all sorts of bright ideas on how to cope with seat wear, valve/seat compatibility that changes with virtually every application. Ever noticed how the std production valves with rotators etc turn to absolute junk when you try to upp the RPM range a bit, a valve train like this which will see over a 100,000 miles in Ma & Pa style driving std form will destroy itself & the seat in as little as 10,000 in a hard driven road car. Why? the gas speed past the valve head induces the rotation to keep deposits off the valve seat, when you increase the engine speed/load the gas speed also increases the rotation speed of the valve, so now the valve instead of coming to a gentle stop each time it seats, ends up arriveing with ' all four wheels locked' and trys to literally weld itself to the seat. This happens to each valve 50 times a second @ 6000 RPM.
Now in the race stuff I build one of the first checks I make whenever checking valve lash is ensure that the roller rocker has a single wear pattern on the end of the valve stem. If it has not then your in trouble and either the spring package is wrong or the driver is a rev head. What has this got to do with E85 et all, lots, since each fuel change will have some effect downstream on reliability of components etc.

Do we really have to 'Learn' it all again! Yes , if you let them the manufacturers will actually go thru the process of re-discovery & expect you to pay for it!

 

[Randy V]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

Is there any detriment to using 100% ethanol or 100% methanol?

Just as in E85;

- Oil Contamination will be a problem in vehicles with any degree of blow-by
- Corrosion due to hygroscopic properties of any alcohol
- Lack of heat will reduce exhaust system life as moisture will not be burned off.
- Lack of upper cylinder lubrication will shorten valve and valve seat life.
- Fuel pumps that have fuel flowing through the armature/commutator will probably not function long if at all due to the conductivity of alcohol vs gasoline.
- Fuel economy will be less thereby shortening the mileage capability in a tank of fuel.

Just off the top of me head...

 

[Ian Anderson]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

There was discussion about this stuff a while back

In Rhodesia and then Zimbabwe used Blend Fuel - Sugar Cane and Leaded 15/85 ratio but the % varied terribly between batches. Evaporation in hot weather was terrible so dependant on your climate you could have a problem! Also caused problems with certain bits on cars -details below

100% Alcohol yes you could do but you will probably use 33% more Alcohol than Petrol so unless you have a good price difference - may not be worthwhile. (I ran 100cc international karts on methanol and also petrol - the power was slightly better but the engine drank a lot more alcohol!)


See http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-fueling-electrics/20992-fuel-pumps-petrol-alcohol-mixes.html
For the last discussion

Ian

 

[Randy V]

We use just the corn kernel to produce E85 domestically and we throw away the rest of the organic material which is a huge waste.

Not so...

Some of the byproduct is used for Cattle Feed, some for the production of plastics, much of the remainder is actually compressed and dried and then turned into fuel pellets that burn to help process the next batch into Methanol..

While I live in part of the Corn-Belt, I'm not blind to some of the political ploys in the promotion of corn based E85.

Alcohol can be made from literally anything that was once a plant...

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

Brazil is using sugar cane to make their ethanol and they're selling it for $0.50 per gallon equivilant. Oh yeah. It's true! The waste fiberous material from getting the juice out to make the sugar is used as fuel to burn for the processes that need heat. They use very little outside electricity to produce the ethanol, it's all used for lighting & etc. What we're doing here in the US for ethanol is just stupid and inefficient and a rushed "solution" to a problem. What we need to do is pioneer enzyme technology that depolymerizes waste material into a light crude. It's in the experimental process right now but requires no power for the process. You just dump in a bunch of this enzyme and let it go to work on your trash and you end up with crude, carbon, water, and natural gas. They're already doing it with heat & pressure and it's called Thermal Depolymerization. I wanna start doing that!! Anyway, that's another subject. LOL

Laters,

Brian

 

[Doug S.]

...it is only a matter of time for Hydrogen to become a key player.

Now, that's what I'm talkin' about! I recall when CNG was just coming about, I thought the ultimate one-fingered salute to the oil magnates would be a CNG/electric hybrid.

As I research hydrogen technology, I realize that it holds incredible promise with very few penalty points. I don't understand why all the bottled water companies aren't pushing the technology--you could literally buy your fuel at any grocery store for less than $1/gallon...

...and, no heavy batteries to push around.

You can even generate your own Hydrogen, here's a link to a forum where a member is planning on supplementing gasoline with his own homemade hydrogen generator:

http://wherethetrailends.com/index.php?topic=693.0

I use to envision a CNG compressor on the wall of my garage, now that space is taken by a water faucet!

Doug

 

[Charles]

CNG is awesome. When I was stationed Overseas, we had cars that ran on Petrol and CNG. You had a switch on the dashboard so you can pick which fuel to use. I used to run my car 50-50 and would only have to fill my CNG tank once every 6 months and the would feel like it ran forever inbetween fill ups.

I am also looking into a CNG conversion with an E85 conversion.

 

[Charles]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

What about CNG or Bio-Fuel?

 

[Price Walton]

(sniff)

What's that smell Sir Charles?


I like CNG too, a lot, but fill it up once every 6 months?

 

[Cliff Beer]

Not so...

Some of the byproduct is used for Cattle Feed, some for the production of plastics, much of the remainder is actually compressed and dried and then turned into fuel pellets that burn to help process the next batch into Methanol..

While I live in part of the Corn-Belt, I'm not blind to some of the political ploys in the promotion of corn based E85.

Alcohol can be made from literally anything that was once a plant...

Hi Bigfoot,

I happen to personally know several farmers running sizable grain operations and they all leave the by-product to waste. Not so sure your generalization is true in most cases.

 

[Cliff Beer]

What we really need is some politicians with some backbone to legislate a gov't sponsored hydrogen delivery system (pipes, trucks, consumer filling stations, etc.). Instead, what we have is a bunch of political woosies who are in the back pockets of the oil lobby (BIG money). Big oil won't let this happen, of course. It's pathetic really.

Hydrogen is the way to go. Just need a national delivery system which can handle the special needs of getting hydrogen from the plant to the consumer.

 

[David Sturch]

Cliff,
Jatropha is an other alternative. There are farmers growing it in Florida already. I have a friend that has a company that is developing areas in Africa to grow it also. It may have to be blended with regular diesil for colder climates.
Dave

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Re: E85 Ethanol Myths

CNG & BioFuel are great as well. Honestly, you can make fuel out of anything really. It just takes some determination. Won't be long untill we have one of those little 'Mr. Fusion' systems on our cars like in 'Back to the Future'. LOL

I'm a big proponent of alternative fuels. CNG burns super clean. SUPER CLEAN!! And it's 130 octane. The only problem people are having with gaseous fuels is most of them are lighter than air and they want to come back up the intake stream. Todays technology with direct injection is the way to go with gaseous fuels. I posted a thread a while back about out of the box thinking. We all got really creative on that thread.

As far as our dependance on outside oil, there are many MANY theories as to why we don't just make ourselves self sufficient. We can (U.S.A. can, sorry Europe & Auzzies) but there are things keeping us from doing that. I have some videos a friend sent me. Take a look, they're really long, but they are full of inside information that explains a lot of the problem.

Video 1
The Energy Non-Crisis

Video 2
'Presidential Secrets'--Former CIA Operative Chip Tatum Speaks

Kinda opens your eyes and makes you really mad at the same time.

Laters,

Brian

 

[Charles]

(sniff)

What's that smell Sir Charles?


I like CNG too, a lot, but fill it up once every 6 months?

Yes it is true. When I was stationed in Holland I have a 1983 Mercedes 300 (6 cyl). It ran on Petrol (Euro) and CNG. There was a switch on the dash and if you ran it 50-50 mix the CNG tank would last about 6 months. The car had no power on the take off but it ran forever and never broke down in the 3 years that I owned it. It was probably the best car that I had ever owned from a maintenance stand point. I drove that car from July '92 - Nov '95, then I moved to Germany and sold it.

 

[Doug S.]

Hi Bigfoot,
I happen to personally know several farmers running sizable grain operations and they all leave the by-product to waste.

Well, the process does produce alcohol. I once made some homemade wine, threw the "mash" out on the ground rather than try to get rid of it down the septic system, the chickens ate it and all got drunk. It was quite humorous--they were running around, falling over, etc...

I suppose some sort of use could be found for the leftover grains after the "fermentation". Most farmers, however, tend to think in terms of food for their livestock, I doubt it would be good for that.....however, the farmers in my area often put up "insilage", a chewed up conglomeration of all the corn/stalks/leaves, which then fermented in these pits. The heat the insilage produced as it was fermenting was enough to melt snow from the top of the pits and create "steam". The farmers did feed this mess to their cattle during the winter, none of them had any adverse effects, I wonder if the leftover grains could somehow be processed into some sort of a feed product that would have a tolerable alcohol content????

When you grow up in a farming community, you learn pretty quickly not to waste anything. My SO says that when they butchered a pig, they found a use for everything except the "squeel".

Doug

 

[Bill Musarra]

Doug,
That was a pretty good starter video, but rather primitive. The progress is much further along. Go to Utube and search for HHO, hydrogen, of anything along those lines. You will see that the cells they are using are beginning to come along. Search for indiviuals like Zero Fossil Fuels, Smart Scarecrow, D3adp001, or RC9340. There are others, but these guys are on the cutting edge. They have gotten small engines to run completely on water. Supplies are simple, Distilled H2O, 316 stainles steel, and KOH or NAOH. They are getting some rather efficient production. In the 6 MMW(millileters per minute per watt of energy). It takes some energy to do it, but they are doing it. They have developed a rather compact drycell along with an O2 sensor modifier and a PWM(like a reostat but more sofisticated) that when used together, will improve gas mileage 20-50%. Very clean setup. Can be altered to show you when you need to add more water to the system. Check it out. You will be amazed at what guys are doing, and its all open source. No one wants to patent the work, as the patent system is broke. I am working on two different cells when I can. The first is running on 50% H2O and gas. The other is a wet cell design for the HHO production. I am about to go to the dry cell design and get mytruck on it. 13 MPG is killing me at $80-95 a fank full. I can imagine what you Brits are paying. You can ordr the systems for around $300-600 and you install it yourself. Not really that difficult.

Bill

 

[Randy V]

With all the bogus HHO fuel cells people are building - some of them quite large and consuming many amps of current - we will soon be seeing/hearing of them on the news when they blow themselves to kingdom come...

 

[Randy V]

BTW - Cliff - My information on the remnants of the methanol process is neither anecdotal or generalization.
I guess you have to live in the area and coffee with some of the farmers that are doing exactly what I said. It's rather wide spread and quite common here.