Can you elaborate on this. Seems a pretty good idea. Pics maybe?
Interior cooling
- Thread starter Jim Craik
- Start date
Can you elaborate on this. Seems a pretty good idea. Pics maybe?
Jim,
There are alot of areas where hot air seeps into the car. A couple that come to mind are taking silicone caulk to the small openings in the front bulkhead easily done with a flashlight and a dark garage), insulating/ sealing the holes in the rear bulkhead behind the seats, center console (both done with cut to fit block foam) and around the upper seatbelt attachments. I've done a couple of other things if you'd like to look. Maybe a trip to Alice's in early June and we can compare notes.
BTW, I live in Oakdale so heat management is a top priority. Things that could also relieve inside temps are tinting the windshield and coating the engine side of the rear bulkhead to reduce radiant heat. Every litle bit counts.
Rich.
There are alot of areas where hot air seeps into the car. A couple that come to mind are taking silicone caulk to the small openings in the front bulkhead easily done with a flashlight and a dark garage), insulating/ sealing the holes in the rear bulkhead behind the seats, center console (both done with cut to fit block foam) and around the upper seatbelt attachments. I've done a couple of other things if you'd like to look. Maybe a trip to Alice's in early June and we can compare notes.
BTW, I live in Oakdale so heat management is a top priority. Things that could also relieve inside temps are tinting the windshield and coating the engine side of the rear bulkhead to reduce radiant heat. Every litle bit counts.
Rich.
If that was true, that wouldn't be a problem. The problem is the air from the center of the radiator gets routed into the front 'trunk' compartment, and is prevented from escaping into the wheelwells.
Yeah, that was a memorable moment! I was riding in my girlfriend's Pantera when he decided to show us how fast he was with his billion-horsepower 460-stroker motor. Big motor, ice-cold tires and a fundamental lack of understanding of the term 'low polar moment of inertia' had him passing us while traveling 90-degrees sideways, then looping across three lanes of traffic and coming to a stop in front of us, facing backwards! He only missed crashing into us by about two feet! :embarassed:
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Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
I installed what is McMaster part number 91230A001:
in each of the holes where before there was a self-threading screw. These are a very low-profile insert (fraction of a millimeter high) as opposed to the more common "rivnut" that has a flat collar about the width of the fastener an maybe a mm thick like this:
They are also the only ones I know of that small; the corresponding flathead screw eg McMaster 91294A130 has just the right head size for the countsunk holes in our windows. (Side note: I actually used black nylon screws in order to help protect the windows from cracking at the screw locations).
Here is an insert in place, and one with a 3mm nylon screw in place (without windows).
To install these each hole is drilled out to 4.75 mm.
Normally the installation tool I used is McMaster 98590A100, although it came in a kit containing the tool plus mandrels for 3 through 8 mm and ~50 of each size nut insert eg McMaster 91230A600.
Now, here's the problem. That installation tool has a flat nose about 3/4" dia. which has to press on the insert while it's being seated (to keep it from turning) As long as there is a clear 3/4" area around the hole it works fine. But there are some places around the window where that is not true, such as where there is a bodywork ridge close by. Eventually I figured out how to install them in locations like that I modified a Harbor Freight pliers-squeeze-type rivnut tool
45 Piece Threaded Insert Riveter Kit
by grinding one of its mandrel threads (I think it was a #6) down to 3 mm and rethreading it. If you look closely at the picture above you'll see some scarring above the insert; this was berfore I figured out the HF mandrel trick.
Other cautions: don't over-squeeze the inserts. You will be warned by a quiet cracking sound from the fiberglass if you're going too far.
Also, do not, under any circumstances, cross thread one of these things. If the fastener doesn't spin right in by fingertips, stop. Proceeding almost always results in the insert spinning, and you can make a real mess of things since there is little to grab onto to get your screw out, and you need to in order to drill off the top of the insert. Otherwise, if you have to pull it out you leave a larger hole behind that is too big for a subsequent insert. That's of course fixable, but it's much better to be careful up front.
Also, obviously, this type of insert does not resist push-in as well as a normal riv nut, so make sure your screws are all the way in and don't push hard on the insert before attaching something.
BTW, I use McMaster references above just to make these things easy to find. The actual inserts are AT series made by AVK Industrial Products.
AVK Industrial Products
Also BTW I've used these and conventional rivnuts all over the car, anywhere there is either a self-threading fastener (dash panels, center console, closing plates, etc.) or a bolt-nut pair where great strength is not required (eg holding together the two straps over the faux oil tank/HVAC housing). Once you've done the whole car it makes maintenance dramatically easier.
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Nice article Alan...
Spinning Nutsert -
One of the tricks I've used in the past to keep them from spinning once installed is to use a tooth-pick to put a little bit of JB Weld epoxy on the sides of the hole just before installing the Nutsert.. Once cured, it's not been any trouble. I'll be doing these for my all my lexan on the GT40 when the time comes..
Spinning Nutsert -
One of the tricks I've used in the past to keep them from spinning once installed is to use a tooth-pick to put a little bit of JB Weld epoxy on the sides of the hole just before installing the Nutsert.. Once cured, it's not been any trouble. I'll be doing these for my all my lexan on the GT40 when the time comes..
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Rich E
Thanks for the tips!
It would be great to see you, I go up to Alices most weekend mornings. I usually have coffee with some motorcycle friends at the little market across from Alices.
Let me know if you are comming out, I would love to get together for a good Alices breakfast! There is almost always a few interesting cars up there.
Thanks for the tips!
It would be great to see you, I go up to Alices most weekend mornings. I usually have coffee with some motorcycle friends at the little market across from Alices.
Let me know if you are comming out, I would love to get together for a good Alices breakfast! There is almost always a few interesting cars up there.
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Jim
Have a look here
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/17398-dax-build-up-7.html
post 132
Gives an idea of how mine is set up
Over 20mph I have no need for the fans - under 20mph the fans work wonders (including over an hour and a half on the way to Le mans last year in a Rouen traffic jam (about 3 miles) -outside temp was in the 40's celsius
I admit though I was sweating!
Ian
Have a look here
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/17398-dax-build-up-7.html
post 132
Gives an idea of how mine is set up
Over 20mph I have no need for the fans - under 20mph the fans work wonders (including over an hour and a half on the way to Le mans last year in a Rouen traffic jam (about 3 miles) -outside temp was in the 40's celsius
I admit though I was sweating!
Ian
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks. That should help with the push-in weakness as well.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I'm interested in this thread; as my car gets closer to going on the road, I think about how hot will it be in there, and what am I going to need to do to make it tolerable? I have essentially no weather sealing at all, so I guess I will be finding out where all the hot air gets in...
Do SPF cars have insulated coolant tubes where they run through the tunnel? I did do that, way back when.
Do SPF cars have insulated coolant tubes where they run through the tunnel? I did do that, way back when.
Yes they do. Every bit helps. The more heat you keep out, the less ventilation/cooling you need.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
You mean they come from SA with insulated tubes, or that the installers do it? I ask because P2160 just had bare aluminum pipes until I insulated them.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
A lot of it is radiated to/conducted through the firewall I'm told. So some insulation there may be needed.
Pictures of XGT-2 after restoration show some kind of puffy, foil-covered insulation on the front (interior) side of the firewall. I'd love to know exactly what they used, if anyone knows.
I made the alloy duct to pick up from the naca duct in the front clip.
The CV boot drops over the shutter hole (pic 2) when the clip is lowered.
The shutter is cable operated from inside the car and it works very well to the point if it is not a hot day the flow of air is good with the side windows open.
At the race track it works well, I am considering doing another on the R/H side as well.
It may not suit every chassis but it is just another option.
Jim
The CV boot drops over the shutter hole (pic 2) when the clip is lowered.
The shutter is cable operated from inside the car and it works very well to the point if it is not a hot day the flow of air is good with the side windows open.
At the race track it works well, I am considering doing another on the R/H side as well.
It may not suit every chassis but it is just another option.
Jim
Attachments
Nice work Jim!
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
SteveC asked in another thread whether I had any trouble with the screw locations across the top, where the screws have to be shorter. As far as the inserts go, no, there is enough room behind the surface for the insert to fit before it is collapsed.
I did nearly drill through into the interior of the car because I didn't realize how shallow that area is, but that's more a comment about me than the car.
I was just looking at the door again and noting the small scars left by the installation tool. (Lower right of picture below, with a "T" handle). In my writeup above I mentioned that later I fixed this by rethreading the mandrel on a Harbor Freight nut insert tool to 3 mm. I also suspect that you could use the "official" installation tool with a ~1/4" dia. cylindrical spacer (or stack of washers) to space the tool's nose away from the fiberglass. In case this spacer uses up to many of the mandrel's threads, it's a little secret that the mandrel threads are just a conventional allen screw, so you can fix that by getting a longer one. In fact, I managed to wreck on of them and so bought a box of each size screw just so my tool would never be "down".
OTOH, once you get the HF tool modified, a "squeeze" type tool is much faster and more convenient than the threaded-type tool.
If you're really into doing things fast the threaded-type tool has a 1/4" square recess for a wrench handle. You can if you've got the nerve drive this with an electric screwdriver. Just be careful. Best would be to have an adjustable clutch on the screwdriver and practice on a piece of fiberglass to establish a good clutch setting.
I believe all the tools below are carried by McMaster. I don't know for sure that the others work with the "A-T" fasteners, nor whether there is a 3mm mandrel for them. If you're willing to spend that much money, those big lever tools would be really nice. Just make sure they work with these tiny fasteners.
By the way, another thought that occurred to me after the discussion about dabbing some JB Weld or epoxy on these to prevent spinning, etc. These A-T fasteners are different from "riv nuts" in an interesting way. Whereas rivnuts bend and expand below the hole in order to clinch around the periphery, the A-T fastener actually breaks into two pieces, the lower one being the threaded part and cone shaped, drawn up into the outer part and thus expanding laterally (radially). This means that one of the failure modes is for the lower part to spin within the upper part (ask me how I know). So, the epoxy trick should include applying some to the side of the insert so that when it breaks into two and telescopes, the two pieces are glued to each other as well as to the base material.
Sorry, one more thing: I just noticed on the AVK website the fastener type A-W is said to be "Ideal for thick fiberglass". BUT (and it's a big but) they don't list it in 3 mm. Is 4 mm too big for around the windows? I don't know; and it's too late for me.
AVK Industrial Products - Products - A-W Series® Knurled Threaded Insert
Steve -- was there anything else you wanted to know about this?
I did nearly drill through into the interior of the car because I didn't realize how shallow that area is, but that's more a comment about me than the car.
I was just looking at the door again and noting the small scars left by the installation tool. (Lower right of picture below, with a "T" handle). In my writeup above I mentioned that later I fixed this by rethreading the mandrel on a Harbor Freight nut insert tool to 3 mm. I also suspect that you could use the "official" installation tool with a ~1/4" dia. cylindrical spacer (or stack of washers) to space the tool's nose away from the fiberglass. In case this spacer uses up to many of the mandrel's threads, it's a little secret that the mandrel threads are just a conventional allen screw, so you can fix that by getting a longer one. In fact, I managed to wreck on of them and so bought a box of each size screw just so my tool would never be "down".
OTOH, once you get the HF tool modified, a "squeeze" type tool is much faster and more convenient than the threaded-type tool.
If you're really into doing things fast the threaded-type tool has a 1/4" square recess for a wrench handle. You can if you've got the nerve drive this with an electric screwdriver. Just be careful. Best would be to have an adjustable clutch on the screwdriver and practice on a piece of fiberglass to establish a good clutch setting.
I believe all the tools below are carried by McMaster. I don't know for sure that the others work with the "A-T" fasteners, nor whether there is a 3mm mandrel for them. If you're willing to spend that much money, those big lever tools would be really nice. Just make sure they work with these tiny fasteners.
By the way, another thought that occurred to me after the discussion about dabbing some JB Weld or epoxy on these to prevent spinning, etc. These A-T fasteners are different from "riv nuts" in an interesting way. Whereas rivnuts bend and expand below the hole in order to clinch around the periphery, the A-T fastener actually breaks into two pieces, the lower one being the threaded part and cone shaped, drawn up into the outer part and thus expanding laterally (radially). This means that one of the failure modes is for the lower part to spin within the upper part (ask me how I know). So, the epoxy trick should include applying some to the side of the insert so that when it breaks into two and telescopes, the two pieces are glued to each other as well as to the base material.
Sorry, one more thing: I just noticed on the AVK website the fastener type A-W is said to be "Ideal for thick fiberglass". BUT (and it's a big but) they don't list it in 3 mm. Is 4 mm too big for around the windows? I don't know; and it's too late for me.
AVK Industrial Products - Products - A-W Series® Knurled Threaded Insert
Steve -- was there anything else you wanted to know about this?
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Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
For the very reasons stated above I have used the A-T style rivnut with rather good results. All plexi screws locations plus other areas with, maybe, three locations that "spun" loose. Never tried the epoxy trick, great idea, I will be doing that from now on.
I have the large squeeze tool, other than a little cumbersome in tight areas it works great and frankly a necessity for the larger size steel rivnuts. I use the 'stack washer' trick to gain clearance in the areas Alan mentioned where the tool can gouge the nearby surface.
I have the large squeeze tool, other than a little cumbersome in tight areas it works great and frankly a necessity for the larger size steel rivnuts. I use the 'stack washer' trick to gain clearance in the areas Alan mentioned where the tool can gouge the nearby surface.
I thought this was the best place to put my thoughts on redoing windows based on thread content.
I started the process of redoing my windows today using the process identified below. This included using the HF tool and grinding the mandrel down to re-thread it as a 3mm as well as taking off a small section of the base plate so it would notch around the body. I did this due to the fact that when re-threading the mandrel, I must have ground it down too much and the threads toward the end of the mandrel would slip when expanding the rivet nut, thus using washers didn't work.
A couple of other thoughts:
- I used a hand drill to minimize my ability to drill through into the interior. The only place where I was really nervous (obviously after the first hole) was on the top three middle screws. These are short and without care, one can drill through. Also note the green tape on the drill bit, I used it as a guide to ensure I wouldn't go too far
- I used epoxy as stated below, seemed to help but I won't really know for a few years
- My lexan is filthy... need to clean it
- I did have a few issues where the rivet nut didn't set all the way down or deformed. Probably user error. In instances where that occurred, I used a file or the dremel with a small grinder to tweak the rivet nut. The threads stayed unaffected
- The black paint in the window surround did crack a few times when using the hand drill, I found that if I started very slow with little pressure it would minimize the paint cracking. That said, sometimes it still cracked
- Slow and steady did the trick, when compressing the rivet nuts I would listen carefully for cracking of the fiberglass, when I heard any I would stop and figure it had expanded enough
- It took me about 2 hours to do one window, probably because I am terribly slow at this stuff. I hope the two headlight covers and the other window are a bit faster
Overall it was a fairly painless procedure and the end results are much nicer, the nylon screws blend in far better than the old (and in some cases starting to rust) drywall screws installed by the factory. I do have to get a small bit of black paint that matches the window surround, I am not sure what will match but I do know it is not flat (tried that). In addition I am thinking I might use some of the foam tape around the sides as even with the screws set appropriately, the window flexes away from the window.
Thanks to all for the ideas and Alan for the write-up
Kevin
I started the process of redoing my windows today using the process identified below. This included using the HF tool and grinding the mandrel down to re-thread it as a 3mm as well as taking off a small section of the base plate so it would notch around the body. I did this due to the fact that when re-threading the mandrel, I must have ground it down too much and the threads toward the end of the mandrel would slip when expanding the rivet nut, thus using washers didn't work.
A couple of other thoughts:
- I used a hand drill to minimize my ability to drill through into the interior. The only place where I was really nervous (obviously after the first hole) was on the top three middle screws. These are short and without care, one can drill through. Also note the green tape on the drill bit, I used it as a guide to ensure I wouldn't go too far
- I used epoxy as stated below, seemed to help but I won't really know for a few years
- My lexan is filthy... need to clean it
- I did have a few issues where the rivet nut didn't set all the way down or deformed. Probably user error. In instances where that occurred, I used a file or the dremel with a small grinder to tweak the rivet nut. The threads stayed unaffected
- The black paint in the window surround did crack a few times when using the hand drill, I found that if I started very slow with little pressure it would minimize the paint cracking. That said, sometimes it still cracked
- Slow and steady did the trick, when compressing the rivet nuts I would listen carefully for cracking of the fiberglass, when I heard any I would stop and figure it had expanded enough
- It took me about 2 hours to do one window, probably because I am terribly slow at this stuff. I hope the two headlight covers and the other window are a bit faster
Overall it was a fairly painless procedure and the end results are much nicer, the nylon screws blend in far better than the old (and in some cases starting to rust) drywall screws installed by the factory. I do have to get a small bit of black paint that matches the window surround, I am not sure what will match but I do know it is not flat (tried that). In addition I am thinking I might use some of the foam tape around the sides as even with the screws set appropriately, the window flexes away from the window.
Thanks to all for the ideas and Alan for the write-up
Kevin
