I'm new here, so I hope it's OK to post this here. I am looking for some feedback on these replica GT40 cars; Superformance, CAV, RCR, Tornado, and Roaring 40's. I m wanting to do a GT40 replica and I have done about as much online research as I can. Not much chance to actually see any of these cars, so I would appreciate any feedback on these replicas - overall quality, fit & finish, durability, structural integrity, handling, authenticity, technical support. Any comments much appreciated.
LF Feedback SPF, CAV, RCR, Tornado, Roaring 40's
- Thread starter HighAltitude
- Start date
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Also don't forget ERA.
RE: Superformance:
As you probably know, the Superformance offering differs from the others in being sold only as a roller (complete less engine and transaxle), so assembly quality lapses come with the car rather than being your fault.
RE: Superformance:
As you probably know, the Superformance offering differs from the others in being sold only as a roller (complete less engine and transaxle), so assembly quality lapses come with the car rather than being your fault.
- overall quality: individual parts quality is quite high. assembly quality variable, but general sound.
- fit & finish: body, paint, interior quite high. Frame paint fragile.
- durability: high, with some exceptions. Generally far too much use of sheet metal screws, and some improper installation of rivnuts (mis-shapen holes, incomplete crimp). Durability is weak in some areas (water ingress leading to rust, wheel bearing seals) precisely because the car is so faithful to the original. Weakest parts of the car tend to be those where Superformance deviated from the original design and went their own way for whatever reason (eg rear shock mount, center coolant tubes). Wheel bearing adjustment requires periodic attention. Front ball joint boots weak. Fuel tank venting unreliable.
- structural integrity: same as original, with some exceptions. Parking brake fragile and unreliable. Rear shock mount subject to fatigue in long term use. Like the original, the frame is constructed on thin, soft sheet steel and is thus easily damaged via improper jacking, etc.
- handling: when properly set up should be the same or (with modern tires) better than the original.
- authenticity: extremely high, especially for a Mk I. The only one of the bunch with a frame and major components based literally on the original design. See http://www.gt40s.com/forum/superformance-gt40s/34278-spf-gt40-genesis.html#post333851 for excruciating details.
- technical support: very good via Dennis Olthoff, although he and this forum are the only sources of technical info. There are no written documents other than the user manual, a few early technical service bulletins, and a few parts drawings of the suspension. More documents almost certainly exist but Superformance has not seen fit to release those to owners for some reason.
- After market upgrades (you didn't ask): Alan Peterson, Rick Muck and Dennis Olthoff offer an extensive list of additional enhancements to make the care more authentic, more race worthy, more comfortable, more reliable, better looking, etc. etc. IOW, you can make a Superformance GT40 as good as you want to. There is really no limit outside your wallet, and the costs for these are anywhere between a bargain and completely reasonable.
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Thanks for the ifo so far, especially Allan. Much appreciated. Keep it coming.
And wow, I thought I'd done a decent job of finding all the relevent replica builders, but already there are several more to add to the bookmarks!
Thus far, I have certainly been leaning to the SPF, for the following main reasons; first, supposedly a very faithful reproduction. Second, legally can carry the GT40 name. Third, carries a P number. 4th, eligible to be in the GT40 registry and Shelby registry. The latter three, of course, are to bring me just a bit closer to the allure of the real thing, something I could never afford. That said, I must admit that the price for a finished SPF is not cheap. Not to say it's not worth it, but I'm just a simple working man with kids and bills to pay. So, I am exporing options.
With that in mind, I must admit a tend to lean towards the side of the purist on most things, and this project is no different. I was reading another thread comparing the SPF to the CAV and while I do like some features of the CAV, I think I read that the body word deviates fromn the original. Now, the purist in me would love to be 100% original replicated. But,seems like that is an even more expensive option, ANd, I could be satified with some departures under the hood in the name of reliability, durability, handling or safety. But, th ebody shape must be nearly 100% original or thoughts of a cheezy out-of-proportion Ferrarai 308 fiberglass body on a Pontiac FIero come to mind. Shudder!! SO, I do need to draw the line there. Something to add to the list to compare/analyze.
Like I said, thanks to the input. More is welcomed!
And wow, I thought I'd done a decent job of finding all the relevent replica builders, but already there are several more to add to the bookmarks!
Thus far, I have certainly been leaning to the SPF, for the following main reasons; first, supposedly a very faithful reproduction. Second, legally can carry the GT40 name. Third, carries a P number. 4th, eligible to be in the GT40 registry and Shelby registry. The latter three, of course, are to bring me just a bit closer to the allure of the real thing, something I could never afford. That said, I must admit that the price for a finished SPF is not cheap. Not to say it's not worth it, but I'm just a simple working man with kids and bills to pay. So, I am exporing options.
With that in mind, I must admit a tend to lean towards the side of the purist on most things, and this project is no different. I was reading another thread comparing the SPF to the CAV and while I do like some features of the CAV, I think I read that the body word deviates fromn the original. Now, the purist in me would love to be 100% original replicated. But,seems like that is an even more expensive option, ANd, I could be satified with some departures under the hood in the name of reliability, durability, handling or safety. But, th ebody shape must be nearly 100% original or thoughts of a cheezy out-of-proportion Ferrarai 308 fiberglass body on a Pontiac FIero come to mind. Shudder!! SO, I do need to draw the line there. Something to add to the list to compare/analyze.
Like I said, thanks to the input. More is welcomed!
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
If you were to buy a new SPF roller for, say, $74,000 (a number I use only because Dynamic Auto West in Redwood City, CA says they have one for that price), add a $15,000 crate motor, $13,000 RBT transaxle, and pay somebody competent another $15,000 to put that together you'd spend $117,000 for a brand new one. However (and it pains me greatly to say this) the last couple that have sold at auction both went for well under $80,000. So with those two numbers in mind if I were in your situation (and I was, once) I would start "networking" to find a current owner who wants to sell his. You probably won't get it for $80K, but you probably will get it for well under the cost of a new one. The difference between a "new" one and a "used" one is likely to be a few thousand miles on the odometer and the fact that the "used" one has now been thoroughly shaken down and will provide you with no surprises, whereas the new one is likely to have a minor glitch or two before things settle down. I also suggest calling the other SPF dealers (Rick Muck springs immediately to mind) to see if someone has a roller on hand they'd like to move off the floor.
One more thought; I learned at a visit to SPF a year or so ago that they sometimes lease them. So another approach would be to look for one that's about to come "off lease".
Also, when I was looking for mine Dennis Olthoff new of just about everyone that was for sale that I found on my own, so you might start by calling him.
Now, let's hear something from the RCR, ERA, CAV, etc. fans.
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George
It dosnt have to be a SPF to get the GT40 experiance.
I own an RF and I love it .
Jim
It dosnt have to be a SPF to get the GT40 experiance.
I own an RF and I love it .
Jim
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
George
First thing you need to ask yourself is "What will I use the car for"
If you are looking to race it then you will need to find out what safety equipment is required for your regularity board and then build one to meet their requirements - that said there are very few race series that would allow such a car into their series.
For cars in FIA historic racing I believe there are only 2 that meet their specifications (Gelscoe (About £250 000 for one of their cars complete) and Superformance) (I may be proved wrong here)
If it is a street driven / weekend / occasional track day car. Any of the breeds mentioned above will be more than adequate, and unless you have previous race experience, probably be more of a car that you can handle that you would believe - even with 300hp. the acceleration etc is mind blowing and the speed gets real high real quick.
If you are thinking - this will get used daily - probably not
If you think I'll use it for weekends away - probably not - unless you don't have luggage
If you think this car will not get attention - you are wrong they make a scene everywhere!
But if you want a car that will make you smile every time you see it - never mind drive it, then there is nothing better!
Ian
First thing you need to ask yourself is "What will I use the car for"
If you are looking to race it then you will need to find out what safety equipment is required for your regularity board and then build one to meet their requirements - that said there are very few race series that would allow such a car into their series.
For cars in FIA historic racing I believe there are only 2 that meet their specifications (Gelscoe (About £250 000 for one of their cars complete) and Superformance) (I may be proved wrong here)
If it is a street driven / weekend / occasional track day car. Any of the breeds mentioned above will be more than adequate, and unless you have previous race experience, probably be more of a car that you can handle that you would believe - even with 300hp. the acceleration etc is mind blowing and the speed gets real high real quick.
If you are thinking - this will get used daily - probably not
If you think I'll use it for weekends away - probably not - unless you don't have luggage
If you think this car will not get attention - you are wrong they make a scene everywhere!
But if you want a car that will make you smile every time you see it - never mind drive it, then there is nothing better!
Ian
Alan,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
As to an "off-lease" car, yes, you CAN lease an SPF GT40! However it is a "finance lease", i.e a program where you lease (finance) the unpaid balance and the lease payment covers the balance and interest to a fixed final balloon payment which may be a low as $1.00. The company that does this for us is Astra Lease and they specialize in leasing unusual items. Walk into your local bank and tell them you want to finance a "car" except the car does not have an engine, is not complete, does not have a title yet, etc. When the loan officer finishes laughing or the "deer-in-the-headlights" look fades, what do you think the answer will be? Yeah, I had one customers bank call me and I could HEAR through his silence his confusion and that the answer was "NO!!"
For the record I have been speaking with "HighAltitude" and you must understand his options are more limited as he is in Canada and the dreaded Transport Canada rules must be obeyed! We have imported Superformance products to Canada and done so in a legal, TC approved manner. Under special arangements with Superformance and approval by TC we offer a special
"starter kit" that is built to TC specifications by the factory. Our Canadian agent then adds local content and parts that meet SPF specifications to produce a "rolling chassis" comparable to what you would purchase in the US. In the case of the GT40 we are bound by the license agreement to insure the car is assembled by us to the standards to allow use of the "GT40" trademark.
We do NOT just diassemble a US roller and import it, we do NOT ship parts in first and then the tub as one person has been doing ("they will be watching for more parts after the chassis" he tells people, "we fool 'em by sending the other parts first!") We have worked hard to insure we do it the way TC requires and to prevent a fine or siezure down the road. Who wants to lose their new toy because someone else didn't do it right?
it also depends what you want from the GT40...
you want to build a new car yourself? then your search can be limited but when you want to buy second hand then a lot brands are on the market (second hand)
for example there is also the North America GT40 so more were you live, but not many were build...at least 2 are there and one was for sale a short while ago.
ah see>>
1966 GT40 North America GT40 Sport Scottsdale, Arizona | Elite Motor Group
from the SPF you can also go for the lovely GT40R version.
there are also DAX GT40 and Ford Tojeiro GT40 and GTD GT40 and KAV GT40 and MDA GT40 and the lovely but very expensive Gelscoe GT40 and some more, but the above cars are all good replica's and not say "kit-kar" on a Fiero basis ;-)
you want to build a new car yourself? then your search can be limited but when you want to buy second hand then a lot brands are on the market (second hand)
for example there is also the North America GT40 so more were you live, but not many were build...at least 2 are there and one was for sale a short while ago.
ah see>>
1966 GT40 North America GT40 Sport Scottsdale, Arizona | Elite Motor Group
from the SPF you can also go for the lovely GT40R version.
there are also DAX GT40 and Ford Tojeiro GT40 and GTD GT40 and KAV GT40 and MDA GT40 and the lovely but very expensive Gelscoe GT40 and some more, but the above cars are all good replica's and not say "kit-kar" on a Fiero basis ;-)
Spend some time thinking who/what mfg's will be producing/supporting them in the future, say 5-10 years down the road.
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Fair, balanced, thorough, and very informative. Well done! Robert
I'll do my best to speak on CAV's behalf. First, I LOVE MINE. Is it perfect? No.
Is it a "Dead on, Balls Accurate" (approved technical term) copy? No. What it has is is a beautiful stainless steel chassis (a work of art IMO, which won't rust) with a very well done quality body sitting on top. Some very minor changes were made to the body design but only a true GT40 fan would see them. The interior is roomy by GT40 standards and very well done. Read: quality parts used. The CAV unlike SPF can be bought in kit form and I can assure you that any questions regarding the build will be answered by either the US Representative (Johann Keyser) or the CAV Company owner, Jean Foure. Ask me how I know. They have both been very responsive to my emails & calls. You will have support is what I'm saying even if you buy a "pre-owned" completed (like I did) or partially completed car.
I admit I've had a few issues with my car....but those issues have been engine related and not the fault of the CAV company. The front suspension has been reported to be weak in the very early pre serial # 100 cars. Some electrical concerns have also been reported. I too had electrical issues but I'm unsure if they were caused at the factory or by someone trying to "upgrade" some part of the car after the car left the factory.
As stated by my very learned friends above....none of these cars are "Dead on balls accurate" the SPF is probably the closet. But you can buy one if you have the money (Gelscoe (England) or Holman Moody (USA)) but bring VERY BIG money with you.
Otherwise, no matter which one of the manufactures you go with you'll find a few things.....everyone is going to have some design flaws, none of them are ever going to be original and so when asked by passers by is this a real GT40 you'll be able to say.....YES, it is but its NOT an ORIGINAL GT40. Most of the company's mentioned are pretty good at producing good quality cars..otherwise they wouldn't still be around.
Yep, its up to you to determine what use you'll want out of the car which might help in making your decision and Yep, there's some damn good deals to be had out there right now. I LOVE MY CAV, its given me great joy in driving a car from bygone days and all the GT40 thrills I could ever want. It attracts a HUGE amount of attention and wins awards all the time. Its beautifully put together its just what I wanted given my "want" list. I hope this helps. Regardless, welcome to our world and good luck whichever way you go.
Is it a "Dead on, Balls Accurate" (approved technical term) copy? No. What it has is is a beautiful stainless steel chassis (a work of art IMO, which won't rust) with a very well done quality body sitting on top. Some very minor changes were made to the body design but only a true GT40 fan would see them. The interior is roomy by GT40 standards and very well done. Read: quality parts used. The CAV unlike SPF can be bought in kit form and I can assure you that any questions regarding the build will be answered by either the US Representative (Johann Keyser) or the CAV Company owner, Jean Foure. Ask me how I know. They have both been very responsive to my emails & calls. You will have support is what I'm saying even if you buy a "pre-owned" completed (like I did) or partially completed car.
I admit I've had a few issues with my car....but those issues have been engine related and not the fault of the CAV company. The front suspension has been reported to be weak in the very early pre serial # 100 cars. Some electrical concerns have also been reported. I too had electrical issues but I'm unsure if they were caused at the factory or by someone trying to "upgrade" some part of the car after the car left the factory.
As stated by my very learned friends above....none of these cars are "Dead on balls accurate" the SPF is probably the closet. But you can buy one if you have the money (Gelscoe (England) or Holman Moody (USA)) but bring VERY BIG money with you.
Otherwise, no matter which one of the manufactures you go with you'll find a few things.....everyone is going to have some design flaws, none of them are ever going to be original and so when asked by passers by is this a real GT40 you'll be able to say.....YES, it is but its NOT an ORIGINAL GT40. Most of the company's mentioned are pretty good at producing good quality cars..otherwise they wouldn't still be around.
Yep, its up to you to determine what use you'll want out of the car which might help in making your decision and Yep, there's some damn good deals to be had out there right now. I LOVE MY CAV, its given me great joy in driving a car from bygone days and all the GT40 thrills I could ever want. It attracts a HUGE amount of attention and wins awards all the time. Its beautifully put together its just what I wanted given my "want" list. I hope this helps. Regardless, welcome to our world and good luck whichever way you go.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Oh Canada! (sorry, was I singing?) That complicates things.... so if I remember correctly that means he can't, practically speaking, import a "used" GT40, right?
On the lease thing, I'm not sure I get the distinction so perhaps the key question is: at the end of the lease who owns the car?
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Yes, sorry; I went a little overboard in the salesmanship there...
At lease end, you (the lessee) owns it. A "finance lease" is really a conditional finance contract that has some tax benefits for the lessor along with the interest they collect. With this type of lease there are no "lease returns" to be sold off at cut-rate prices like at your local big-three dealership.
And I have said it before, the SPF is NOT the "end all, be all" GT. The best GT for you is the one you like and can buy. Yes, there are differences, but to some if it LOOKS like a GT 40, that is all they need.........others want something else. Do what makes you happy!
Rick raises a good point about leasing - when a car is leased, the lessor (here, SPF) gets a tax deduction for the depreciation upon the vehicle. This is because until the end of the lease the vehicle title is held by SPF, and it is a depreciable business asset. This is the main reason why leasing a car is often less expensive than an outright purchase.
And if SPF is offering a zero-cash buyout at the end of the lease term, well, that's a pretty sweet deal, and the lessee (now owner...) likely achieved some savings on the total cost to acquire.
Me thinks that is novel in the replica/kit car industry, and a really good idea of SPF from a sales standpoint. Perhaps the other manufacturers should follow suit......
And if SPF is offering a zero-cash buyout at the end of the lease term, well, that's a pretty sweet deal, and the lessee (now owner...) likely achieved some savings on the total cost to acquire.
Me thinks that is novel in the replica/kit car industry, and a really good idea of SPF from a sales standpoint. Perhaps the other manufacturers should follow suit......
Cliff,
Thanks for the kudos, but it is NOT a program from SPF, but rather an independant lease company. And they would lease you a new CAV (but I would rather a Superformance for purely selfish reasons!)!
Anyone may contact me for further information.
Rick
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks for the lease explanation, Rick. I'm still amazed at what I learn here!
