Liberal vs Conservative in USA

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
I am trying to figure out where all these unemployed people I am supporting cradel to grave are, since the unemployment rate has been between 5% (basically the natural rate of unemployment) and 10% since WWII, and since the average "stay" on welfare/unemployment is now down under 120 days or something.
 
As for making a choice for living on the dole...you're damned right they do.

I wasn't born with a silver spoon.

I lived in that neighborhood because I couldn't afford to live anywhere else. Just like everybody else there.

But I haven't done time, I don't have any illegit children, and I never planned on living on government handouts my entire life. Why is that?
 
I am trying to figure out where all these unemployed people I am supporting cradel to grave are, since the unemployment rate has been between 5% (basically the natural rate of unemployment) and 10% since WWII, and since the average "stay" on welfare/unemployment is now down under 120 days or something.

I'd like to see where you got those numbers. I don't believe them. Please, because Clinton made a specific move the limit "welfare" to.. was it 3 years? Well, it varies by state, but there so many exceptions and other forms of aid, that making the inference that "cradle to grave living on the dole" is not possible is a joke.

And I'm sorry, but just pure unemployment benefits run how long now? At least with unemployment, you have to have been employed. It's technically "insurance" and really isn't part of this discussion as far as I'm concerned.
 
I am trying to figure out where all these unemployed people I am supporting cradel to grave are, since the unemployment rate has been between 5% (basically the natural rate of unemployment) and 10% since WWII, and since the average "stay" on welfare/unemployment is now down under 120 days or something.

And Jeff,

Obviously, they must all live in the part of STL you haven't visited. BTW, unemployment numbers are manipulated many ways. You do relize that people who are not/never were looking for work are not counted, don't you? The actual rate of unemployment is more like 10-15% higher. Sorry to hear that you don't know where your tax dollars are going.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
The Ant and the Grasshopper, revised edition

Remember the ant and the grasshopper?
OLD VERSION . . .
The ant works hard, in the withering heat, all summer long.
He builds his house and stores supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks that the ant is a fool.
He laughs, dances and plays the summer away, preparing nothing for the coming winter.
Winter comes, the ant is safe and warm.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
The moral to the story being: BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEW VERSION . . . (sad but true)
The ant works hard, in the withering heat, all summer long.
He builds his house and stores supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks that the ant is a fool.
He laughs, dances and plays the summer away, preparing nothing for the coming winter.
Winter comes, the ant is safe and warm.
The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and fed, while others are cold and starving!
CBS, NBC, ABC & CNN show up to provide pictures of shivering grasshoppers, next to a video of an ant
in his comfortable home, with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast! How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor
grasshopper is allowed to suffer this way?
Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah, with the grasshopper.
Everyone cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green".
Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house, where the news stations film the group
singing "We Shall Overcome".
Jesse then has the group pray for the grasshopper's sake, and reminds the group to contribute to his group, so that he can "continue the fight" for grasshoppers, everywhere!
Ted Kennedy & John Kerry exclaim, in an interview with Tom Brokaw, that the ant has gotten rich, off
the back of the poor grasshopper!
Both call for an immediate tax hike, to make the ant pay "his fair share"!
Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity For Grasshoppers Act", retroactive to the beginning of the
summer.
The ant is fined for failing to hire the proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to
pay his retroactive taxes, his house is confiscated by the government.
Hillary Clinton gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper, in a defamation suit against the ant.
The case is tried in federal court, with a jury comprised of unemployed welfare recipients.
Surprise! The ant loses the case!
The story ends, as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food, while the government house he lives in (which happens to be the ant's old house) crumbles around him,
due to lack of maintenance!
The ant has disappeared in the snow.
The grasshopper is found, dead, in a drug-related incident.
The house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders, who terrorize this once-peaceful neighborhood.
 
But I haven't done time, I don't have any illegit children, and I never planned on living on government handouts my entire life. Why is that?

In the UK now in order to try to address this problem they have decided that those on benefits must do work experience for their welfare.

Like me you may have thought that is a great idea, but there is a problem with the way they are doing it.

Looks like companies may see this as a way of getting in Labour they don’t have to pay for and reducing the paid hours of their current workers there by reducing their costs.

Looks a distinct possibility this is about to happen to my son and as he is already on part time hours. He is currently training up the lad who is most likely going to take some of his paid hours when trained.

Don't know what the answer is, and hopefully this is a one off example, but be careful what you wish for, it may effect you more than you thought.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
The Cro-Magnon and the Neanderthal

Once upon a time, there was a Cro-Magnon man named Boorack. His neighbor a few caves over was Ugh-Ugh. Boorack and Ugh-Ugh got along ok, although they certainly did see the world very differently.

Ugh-Ugh was peaceful enough but seemed to value his worth by the amount of pokesticks he made -- his Neandy term for spear. He kept stockpiling his pokesticks in his cave, and would rant on and on to Boorack about how needed them to make sure he kept the evil Gobment tribe from across the river out of his cave.

Ugh-Ugh seemed to like living alone, and claimed all he needed to live were his pokesticks and his favorite sitting rock. And his happy smokeweed.

Boorack liked Ugh-Ugh fine enough, but wondered if sitting in a cave all day marveling in one's one personal responsibility and freedom was really what life was all about. It didn't seem bad to Boorack but it didn't seem like much would ever change either.

One day, Boorack crossed the river to go spy a bit on the evil Gobment tribe. He climbed up a high hill and hid in a stand of bushes, observing the Gobments below. Based on what Ugh-Ugh had told him, he expected to see a group of lazy ne'er do wells, sucking off the teat of a few Gobments who did all the work.

Instead, Boorack was amazed! The Gobments had organized themselves into teams. One team fished. One farmed. The other built houses, and a fourth built paths and walkways. The men and women were all treated equally and all had a fair say in what would be done next, and how. Because everyone didn't have to do EVERYTHING, some Gobments could work on inventing the wheel, and others learning to master fire. One even figured out that putting some sugar and some wheat in a vat and cooking it made some mighty fine fire water.

What seemed even MORE amazing was that there were actual OLD Gobments! Boorack had never seen a Cro-Mag over the age of 30, much less a Neandy! And it looked like the older Gobments were respected by the younger ones, who -- in exchange for the knowledge the elders passed on to them -- cared for the elders.

Boorack went back to his cave slightly puzzled by all this. He stopped in to see Ugh Ugh who was pushing making more pokesticks to prevent the inevitable Gobment takeover. Boorack told him what he had seen, and Ugh Ugh sighed. Boorack, he said, you've have your eyes and your ears tricked by the evil god MSM -- all you saw was an illusion. No one in the Gobment tribe is happy -- they have no rights! But, said Boorack, they all seemed to be able to do what they wanted once the necessary village work was done!

Ugh Ugh laughed. See! Once the work was done! SEe what you said! How can that be freedom! They had to do work for others!

Boorack scratched his chin. Ugh-Ugh's words seemed to make sense on the surface, but they didn't match up with what he had seen across the river. He left Ugh-Ugh's cave to think.

Several weeks later, he went back cross the river to see once more whether Ugh-Ugh was right. He was amazed! The Gobments had built warm structures to live in! And had the evil equus doing work for them! They had developed a new pokestick that used twisted vines to launch the pokestick 4 times as far as even Ugh Ugh could throw it!

How did all of this happen? Boorack had to find out. So he went down into the valley, scared, but wanting to know more.

The first Gobment he met greeted Boorack and said peace friend, do you wish to join our tribe? The rewards are many, but so are the responsbilities! Boorack said, please, tell me more. Must I bow to the will of the collective!

No, no, nothing like that lauged the Gobment. You will just have to spend some of your time working for the benefit of all, in order to benefit from the comforts and advancements we have created as a group. Boorack scratched his chin again (he did that a lot, Cro-Mag beards itched, although Schickatooza the Cro-Mag was about to solve that problem via the invention of the razor). He said, so I can't sit around all day and make pokesticks?

No said the Gobment member. We keep all the pokesticks over in that hut. You can use them responsibly -- we don't want the Cro Mag who might invent a chariot to take us to the Moon to die in an unfortunate pokestick accident!

Boorack wondered. THis didn't sound so bad. I spend some of my time contributing to society, and in return I benefit from it as well! And look at all they have accomplished!

I'm in said Boorack.

Months later, the winter came, and Boorack sat happy and warm in his new hut in the Gobment valley. He had a thought -- what of his old friend Ugh-Ugh.....and decided to go check on him.

He crossed the river and headed up to his old cave, and yelled "Ugh Ugh!" Where are you? I've got great news, we don't have to fear the Gobment!

All he heard was a moan. He ran to the cave, and found Ugh Ugh on the floor, breathing his last breath, impaled by a pokestick. Ugh Ugh, what happened said Borack, trying to help his friend. Ugh-Ugh pushed him away violentlsy saying, I tripped and fell on my pokestick, but I am personally responsible! I have the liberty! I will take care of myself!

And he promptly died.

In this way, the conservative I mean Neanderthal slowly became extinct, and the Cro Mag built a shining city on the hill were all worked hard, and prospered!

****************

All in good fun my Neandy I mean friends!
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Yes, the gobment will look after you like it is doing now. I wish you well, but you should read your history books. I'd start with the history of the Roman Empire.
 

Pat

Supporter
Jeff, you sound like a big government wonk. What is the value added for the taxpayer for each government worker hired?
Since we're discussing this in an economics context, consider the Economic Value Added (EVA) for the growing government workforce.
As you note, the economic value is simply the financial circulation of the income paid the government worker. There is no durable economic production by the government buracracy. If you view the governemt EVA is the net economic value earned by the governemment less the taxes and borrowed money (plus interest) used to fund the activity. In many cases where there are clear redundancies, (e.g. in financial regulation alone, you have the SEC vs the FED vs FDIC vs the Treasury Dept vs the Federal Reserve vs the Comptroller of the Currency vs the Office of Thrift Supervision vs the Commodities Futures Trading Commission). Here the EVA is a negative number. How do taxpayers gain when the return from the capital (taxes) employed is less than the cost of that capital? Compare that to the money in circulation that could be inventing things, building things, transporting things, and not simply consuming things. The government is quite franky a terrible investment and should be minimally funded to meet only it’s constitutionally mandated obligations.
 

Charlie Farley

Supporter
My maternal Grandfather died when i was very young.
But i do remember still, one thing he said to me, that was " over my head " when he said it.
Now it makes alot of sense.
His words were this:
" Remember, it is your duty to pay as little tax as possible ", otherwise governments will get FAT , greedy and profligate ( wastefull )"
How true his wisdom was. And its no coincidence that percentage wise, a greater part seems to find it's way into their pockets, either directly through pay or via pension schemes !!!
BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!
 

Charlie Farley

Supporter
Forget this silly conversation so far.You all need to wake up, you are dancing to jive, to your own destruction.
The Chinese are ripping off US defence "secrets" wholesale. Tell me, why don't the Chinese build aircraft carriers by the dozen ? After all, they have the money and the technology??. A nuclear carrier plus air wing is like $ 10 billion. Much cheaper to employ a team to disable it by computer means !!
Cost, in the millions. After all, what the hell is the US doing trying to extradite a UK computer " geek " , who is "intellectually challenged ". who just happened to access Department of Defence computers and NASA , both Top Secret, files ??? How fucking shortsighted can you bloody get. Department of Defence & NASA should be offering him a fucking million dollar salary to work for them, to plug the fucking mile wide gaps in their so called security. The fact that they want to extradite him to the US and jail him for 140 years, says much about how impotent they are. Bunch of fucking wankers !!!!!! They want to get their fucking act right before a kid can kick their butt wholesale !!!! Department of Defence, more like Department of Arseholes.
 
Forget this silly conversation so far.You all need to wake up, you are dancing to jive, to your own destruction.
The Chinese are ripping off US defence "secrets" wholesale. Tell me, why don't the Chinese build aircraft carriers by the dozen ? After all, they have the money and the technology??. A nuclear carrier plus air wing is like $ 10 billion. Much cheaper to employ a team to disable it by computer means !!
Cost, in the millions. After all, what the hell is the US doing trying to extradite a UK computer " geek " , who is "intellectually challenged ". who just happened to access Department of Defence computers and NASA , both Top Secret, files ??? How fucking shortsighted can you bloody get. Department of Defence & NASA should be offering him a fucking million dollar salary to work for them, to plug the fucking mile wide gaps in their so called security. The fact that they want to extradite him to the US and jail him for 140 years, says much about how impotent they are. Bunch of fucking wankers !!!!!! They want to get their fucking act right before a kid can kick their butt wholesale !!!! Department of Defence, more like Department of Arseholes.

Don't hold back! Say what you really mean!
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
If you think the moral of the story was that goverment is a producer, you missed the point. Government is an enabler (would Thomas Edison have done anything with electricity if government patent rights and the courts didn't give him a financial incentive to do so?) and a "doer" of things that individuals and the private sector can't or shouldn't be trusted (there are some things where the profit motive is not appropriate) to do.

A short list:

1. Go to the Moon.
2. Win WWII.
3. Provide police and fire protection.
4. Build the interstate highway system.
5. Protect and develop nascent but important industries (the early aircraft industry, Semantec, etc.).
6. Provide courts to allow peaceful resolution of disputes rather than IBM's army of Pinkertons taking on Microsoft's.
7. Provide collective assistance to the elderly, the infirm and the unemployed.


And on, and on, and on. Sure, I can be a He-Man Government hater along with anyone. It's natural. No one likes authority.

But some of the anti-Government rhetoric I see on boards like this is stupid and myopic.

So it goes!

Totally agree with Veek's comments. Government is NOT a producer, rather a hungry CONSUMER!
 
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