Obama Sponsor of greed.

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
We're tripping over the word "drafting." What I am saying is that what is now TARP was a creation of the executive branch and the Fed.

What happened was in September of 2008, there were lengthy meetings involving Secretary Paulsen, the Fed, the Bush Administration AND the Obama and McCain campaigns about what to do with the liquidity crunch and the fact major investment houses were days away from insolvency.

Paulsen and the Fed came up with the plan that ultimately became TARP, with (supposedly) the Obama campaign providing more input than either President Bush or Senator McCain. Regardless, TARP came from the Secretary of the Treasury and the Fed. What is in the bill is their plan. This thing was not a creature of Congress other than in the sense Congress of course had to pass it for it to become law.

No it isn't
The bill was drafted by Congress, while the idea may have come from Treasury.

This from the Huff Post.
A bi-partisan majority in Congress responded by enacting the Troubled Asset Relief Program. The debate over this issue was heated. On October 3, 2008, when TARP became law, one member of Congress even went so far as to say, "I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say this may be the day America died.

The "bi-partisan" vote was actually Aye 241 democrats 19 republicans. No 166 republicans I guess it would have been seen as bi-partisan if one republican had vote aye.
 
We're tripping over the word "drafting." What I am saying is that what is now TARP was a creation of the executive branch and the Fed.

What happened was in September of 2008, there were lengthy meetings involving Secretary Paulsen, the Fed, the Bush Administration AND the Obama and McCain campaigns about what to do with the liquidity crunch and the fact major investment houses were days away from insolvency.

Paulsen and the Fed came up with the plan that ultimately became TARP, with (supposedly) the Obama campaign providing more input than either President Bush or Senator McCain. Regardless, TARP came from the Secretary of the Treasury and the Fed. What is in the bill is their plan. This thing was not a creature of Congress other than in the sense Congress of course had to pass it for it to become law.

We are in agreement, I said that Congress drafted it into a bill and voted on it. I don't know if they took it word for word or phrased it differently, but in order to vote on it they would make it into a bill. So, from what you say about BO's input into TARP, part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting...........................
 

Dave Hood

Lifetime Supporter
Pete:

In the words of your former Premier, Joh Bjelke Petersen, my great country is becoming a banana republic.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
No, we are not in agreement because I think your position is misleading honestly. It suggests Congress came up with the idea. It didn't. TARP came from a Republican executive branch with input from the McCain campaigns (although most accounts suggest they were clueless) and the Obama campaigns.

The "fault' part is a value judgment. As I explained above, before TARP the credit markets were frozen and the economy was literally on the verge of collapse. Even solid businesses that needed short term loanable funds couldn't get them. I'd say "credit" is a better term and it goes mostly to Bush, Paulson, the Fed and Obama.



We are in agreement, I said that Congress drafted it into a bill and voted on it. I don't know if they took it word for word or phrased it differently, but in order to vote on it they would make it into a bill. So, from what you say about BO's input into TARP, part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting...........................
 
No, we are not in agreement because I think your position is misleading honestly. It suggests Congress came up with the idea. It didn't. TARP came from a Republican executive branch with input from the McCain campaigns (although most accounts suggest they were clueless) and the Obama campaigns.

The "fault' part is a value judgment. As I explained above, before TARP the credit markets were frozen and the economy was literally on the verge of collapse. Even solid businesses that needed short term loanable funds couldn't get them. I'd say "credit" is a better term and it goes mostly to Bush, Paulson, the Fed and Obama.

No Jeff, I said "The bill was drafted by Congress, while the idea may have come from Treasury."
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
We are in agreement, I said that Congress drafted it into a bill and voted on it. I don't know if they took it word for word or phrased it differently, but in order to vote on it they would make it into a bill. So, from what you say about BO's input into TARP, part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting...........................[/QUOTE Posted by Tom

Tom,

So you see someone coming in after the fact, to help solve a major existing problem as being at fault?

Really?


Say Tom,

When the Highway Patrol comes to an accident and then helps clean up, does that make them parially at fault for the accident?
 
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Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Tom, what I am saying - respectfully -- is that the below misses the point. Congress did not and would not have come up with TARP on its own (Democratic or Republican). They didn't have the sophistication to do so.

You seem fixated on pinning this on a Democractic Congress. I think that is misleading. TARP "came" from the major players in a Republican administration on finance matters, with support and input from both presidential campaigns and then was passed by pretty overwhelming majorities in both the House and Senate.

Making this partisan, either "blaming" Democrats or Republicans, is misguided. TARP was one of the few truly bi-partisan things we have accomplished in the last 4 years.

You fail to point out that a democrat congress and senate majority (2007-2009) voted for TARP. It would not have gone anywhere without their drafting up, approval and presentation to the president for his signature.
 
We are in agreement, I said that Congress drafted it into a bill and voted on it. I don't know if they took it word for word or phrased it differently, but in order to vote on it they would make it into a bill. So, from what you say about BO's input into TARP, part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting...........................[/QUOTE Posted by Tom

Tom,

So you see someone coming in after the fact, to help solve a major existing problem as being at fault?

Really?




Say Tom,

When the Highway Patrol comes to an accident and then helps clean up, does that make them parially at fault for the accident?

Jim, No I was just stating fact. You want to make it someones fault! I do like your quaint little analogies though.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jim, No I was just stating fact. You want to make it someones fault! I do like your quaint little analogies though. [/QUOTE]Posted by Tom

Tom,

You say you were "stating fact" when you said: "part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting..........................."

It that a fact?

Does coming in after the fact to try and save a very bad situation make him at fault for the original problem?

Really?

Using my "quaint little analagy", is the Highway Patrol at fault for the accident?
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Now Tom if you want to give credit to Obama for pushing through the TARP legislation, possably saving the world economy, I'm all for it.

But you trying to blame Obama for the crissis to begin with is problematic.

Although he was the Junior Senator from Illinois with little seniority at the time.
 
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Pat

Supporter
TARP started with the regulators not the White House. Remember Democrats had a supermajority in congress and to portray this as solely “Bush thing” or driven by Republican or Democrat campaign strategists simply isn’t accurate. It is also misleading to say banks had frozen credit markets. I was an executive for a top 10 bank in 2008. Compared to 2007, total 2008 average loans actually increased $5.4 billion, or 4.5%. What changed were the credit standards and structural requirements to get the credit. I don’t know of any CREDIT WORTHY businesses in 2007-8 that were denied loans (today it’s a different story- but more on that later). It seems to be forgotten that banks are in business to make money and they do that by lending. They want to lend money and need it to survive.
TARP legislation was a wholly a bipartisan effort and also used for the GM and Chrysler bailouts in support of the large Democratic Party (then with a congressional supermajority)constituencies in the UAW, and pals at JP Morgan Chase Sachs (sixth largest campaign contributor to Obama), Citigroup Sachs (seventh largest campaign contributor to Obama) and Goldman Sachs (second largest campaign contributor to Obama) . TARP money is also being spent is to support the "Making Homes Affordable" plan, which was implemented on March 4, 2009, using TARP money by the Department of Treasury to offset individual foreclosures (albeit badly).
The real purpose of TARP was to avoid a disaster like the savings and loan crisis of the ‘80s and ‘90s and stabilize the financial markets. The FDIC simply could not fund the bank failure/losses at the scale being (wrongly) estimated at the time. (I will spare all of you my normal rant on the speed and quality of large bureaucratic forecasting, decision making and implementation). So the FEDs came up with a plan to have large solvent banks acquire smaller failing ones to avoid the losses to the FDIC and the necessity to build an infrastructure similar to the Resolution Trust Corp of the S&L failure days. Banks were selected, many (including the one I worked for) were TOLD to take the money and solve the FDICs problem for them.
For more on that: U.S. Bank CEO: TARP program is ?lousy? - San Francisco Business Times

Unfortunately, the some politically connected institutions with real problems (i.e. Wall Street, the unions to preserve jobs) that actually needed the money leaned on the FEDs to get it and the program expanded. This is followed by the media anti-capitalism rants (although this smacks more of economic Fascism) and all banks were smeared by the same brush. Ironically the realy culprits at Fannie and Freddie and their congressional sponsors are largely ignored.
Timeline shows Bush, McCain warning Dems of financial and housing crisis; meltdown - YouTube

Fact is, TARP was successful in goal #2 - market stability. It will also reward the government with additional Federal revenues. Under TARP the cumulative dividend payable under the preferred stock that banks were required to issue to the Treasury pursuant to the program started at 5% and increases to 9% after 5 years. This represents 3-4 times the cost of capital over the banks normal sources. (What is the interest they are paying you right now on your savings?). On the TARP common equity share of Citigroup alone sold by the Treasury Department in December 2010 at a $12 billion profit. These amount to nothing more than a massive tax on selected financial institutions and their customers and shareholders. In April the Treasury Department announced that, following the recent repayment by three financial institutions of a total $7.4B in TARP funds, the TARP investment in banks has now turned a profit. With those proceeds, the government has now recovered $251B from TARP’s bank programs through repayments, dividends, interest, and other income. Treasury currently estimates that those bank programs will ultimately provide a lifetime profit of approximately $20B to taxpayers. Compare that to President Obama’s $700B Stimulus Program.
Another important goal of TARP was to encourage banks to resume lending again at levels seen before the crisis, both to each other and to consumers and businesses. That isn’t working. The Federally mandated “Stress Tests”, elevated capital adequacy requirements and asset reporting changes are now putting such credit quality pressure on lenders that loans made with confidence in 2007-8 are no longer being made. On one hand the Feds are saying make more loans but on the other, they are making loan decision making far more restrictive.
Capital markets drive innovation, create and expand industries, and can rapidly improve our lives — if we keep government out of the way, and certainly out of the position of distorting markets to favor losers over productive use of capital and especially redistributive policies.
 
Everyone with a political axe to grind needs to take a chill pill and look at the facts. The Federal Reserve engineered the entire bailout program in concert with and tacit approval from the major Central Banks from around the globe. If the US Banks had failed, then the rest of the Social Democratic governments and their propped up economies would have failed as well. Once again, the people in charge of regulations were asleep at the wheel for well over a decade (year 2000 and some researchers make the case it started at least decades earlier). Like all of us going about our daily lives and living out our own agendas, we were not paying attention to the masterminds of the greatest theft in the history of man perpetrated on the gullible and complacent peoples of the modern world. Follow the money!
The world looks more and more like an ant farm with the general population going about its business working and playing, loving and dying, with out a clue as to how all of the world systems works. Social agendas play out, political agendas play out, military agendas play out, and no one has a clue how all of the threads are woven together. When someone or some group figure out a loop-hole and pull the threads to bring it all down and render the fabric of our collective tent to tatters.

What Bush, Obama, the US Congress, and the Fed did was akin to putting on a patch on an already leaking,sinking raft that has other old patches ready to pop off. Its just a matter of time.

Garry
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Take a look at what you say here:

What changed were the credit standards and structural requirements to get the credit. I don’t know of any CREDIT WORTHY businesses in 2007-8 that were denied loans (today it’s a different story- but more on that later).
Another important goal of TARP was to encourage banks to resume lending again at levels seen before the crisis, both to each other and to consumers and businesses. That isn’t working. The Federally mandated “Stress Tests”, elevated capital adequacy requirements and asset reporting changes are now putting such credit quality pressure on lenders that loans made with confidence in 2007-8 are no longer being made. On one hand the Feds are saying make more loans but on the other, they are making loan decision making far more restrictive.
Capital markets drive innovation, create and expand industries, and can rapidly improve our lives — if we keep government out of the way, and certainly out of the position of distorting markets to favor losers over productive use of capital and especially redistributive policies.

In September of 2008, when real estate values dropped like rocks, banks reserve requirements did too and the market for loanable funds dried up. Lines of credit got whacked, and loans stopped being made. I'm not talking about car loans or even mortgages. I'm talking about business lines of credit, personal loans, development/construction loans etc.

You basically acknowledge that in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sentences. Plus, the more restrictive stress testing of banks is to try to get them to avoid what you call "capital markets driving innovation" and what everyone else called the banks and investment firms creating risky and in many cases unregulated real estate backed securities products.

I mean, seriously, innovation via tapping capital markets is fine. However, creating 7 or 8 ways to make money on a single real estate loan transaction is not.

And while it is certainly a mantra from some, I just don't see these draconian policies that favor losers over productive people, or wealth redistribution. Personal tax rates are at their lowest since WWII. Businesses are doing well, profits up.

And Fannie and Freddie? Yes, guarantees on loans from the feds certainly encourage some of this behavior but to think it would not have gone on without Fannie and Freddie is naive I think. Too much mony was being made in the real estate loan business in the 2000s. Banks were going to find a way to keep up and that all cost us in 2008.
 

Pat

Supporter
Take a look at what you say here:

In September of 2008, when real estate values dropped like rocks, banks reserve requirements did too and the market for loanable funds dried up. Lines of credit got whacked, and loans stopped being made. I'm not talking about car loans or even mortgages. I'm talking about business lines of credit, personal loans, development/construction loans etc.

Personal tax rates are at their lowest since WWII.
.

Jeff, that's just not so. As I mentioned, where I worked, our loans outstanding from 2007-2008 went up almost 5%. It's a top 10 commercial bank and most of those were commercial lines of credit. The same is true for most other regional banks. Wall Street, as I mentioned is a different story. "Loanable funds" are there (and have been) where credit standards (structurally and from a credit worthiness standpoint) were met. Most commercial loans in the five institutions I've worked for were collateralized by receivables or deposits, not personal real estate. (Sounds like you need to find another bank.)
We do agree that personal taxes overall are very low. But that’s got a lot more to do with almost 50% of individuals not paying any federal income tax and the huge numbers of individuals that are unemployed. Top earners had higher rates in the past but also were able to take far more exemptions. There was also no AMT. The effective tax burden (tax share in relation to income share) was 5.62 times higher for the rich than for the poor in 1980 and 9.0 times higher in 2008. Thus, the relative tax burden on the rich -- relative to income -- compared to the poor nearly doubled from 1980 to 2008 -- from 5.62 to 9.0. Nevertheless, and despite the heavier and increasing tax burden on the rich, the fact that the income share for the rich increased while the income share for the poor decreased creates a seemingly irrefutable talking point for the left in the current budget debate. The other misleading liberal data point is the use of 2007 (peak) data. Look at 2008-2010.
Most 1% earners did so through capital gains and that has plummeted with the market. Companies are making their balance sheet numbers by slashing costs (and employees) very few do it with income growth. Tax rates of the rich are far more closely linked to the capital gains taxes than income taxes. When the IRS looked at the top 400 earners, salaries and wages, the source of income taxed at the represented only 6.5 percent of these filers’ income. Nearly two-thirds of their income comes from capital gains.
The claim that income growth has primarily benefited the rich does not in fact signify the overall inequity, as it would appear. The key is that the individuals paying taxes in the top 1% or bottom 50% in 1980 are not the same individuals as the taxpayers in the top or bottom segments thirty years later. Over a period of many years, people move up and down the income ladder, depending on their ability, career cycle, ambition, and experience and other factors. The income categories more appropriately refer to classes of jobs or positions, not classes of people, and most individuals change jobs over their lifetime. This mirrors my personal experience. There were a couple of years I made a lot of money and paid a lot of taxes and was in the 1% club. There were far more (like now) when I’m very middle income. There were some, like my college professor tenure and days in the military, I lived below poverty level.
Since the bottom half pay only 2.7% of the total federal income taxes and since nearly half of taxpayers pay no income federal income taxes at all, an incentive exists for a majority constituency to vote to accelerate the growth and spending of the federal government and to increase income taxes that they themselves do not pay. Perhaps the solution would be "no representation without taxation."
Jeff, you’re defending the indefensible. Had Fannie and Freddie not underwritten every piece of loan crap sent them (remember they were incented on volume not quality) and lending institutions allowed to be at risk for their own credit decisions, we’d already be climbing out of this mess.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Jim, No I was just stating fact. You want to make it someones fault! I do like your quaint little analogies though.
Posted by Tom

Tom,

You say you were "stating fact" when you said: "part of Bush's fault is actually Obama's fault, interesting..........................."

It that a fact?

Does coming in after the fact to try and save a very bad situation make him at fault for the original problem?

Really?

Using my "quaint little analagy", is the Highway Patrol at fault for the accident?[/QUOTE]

Well, I won't dispute Jeff's saying in #41 that Obama had more input into TARP than Bush or McCain, you tell him he's wrong. What government policy caused the abundance of bad loans in the first place? That would be the "everyone should own a home" even if they can't afford it policy. Another brilliant democrat idea pushed by Clinton. That would be the original problem.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
The description of the "summit" in DC was that Paulsen led the meeting and presented what needed to be done (basically, force BofA to buy Merrill, have someone buy Wachovia, and then set up TARP to pump liquidity into the remaining banks). Obama and his team was active in asking questions and probing the need for this. McCain was supposedly all over the place, and Bush detached. All suppoted this but it came from Treasury and the Fed.

"Everyone should own a home" goes back way earlier than the Clinton Administration and is a US policy, not a partisan one. The tax deduction for mortgage interest, guaranteed loan programs from WWII forward, etc.

But nothing forced the banks to make these loans. They did so because they could and because they thought they would make money on it. And they did, for a while.

Government had a role in it both from an enabler standpoint, and from a failure to regulate standpoint. But no one held a gun to the bank's heads. They did this to themselves.
 
The description of the "summit" in DC was that Paulsen led the meeting and presented what needed to be done (basically, force BofA to buy Merrill, have someone buy Wachovia, and then set up TARP to pump liquidity into the remaining banks). Obama and his team was active in asking questions and probing the need for this. McCain was supposedly all over the place, and Bush detached. All suppoted this but it came from Treasury and the Fed.

"Everyone should own a home" goes back way earlier than the Clinton Administration and is a US policy, not a partisan one. The tax deduction for mortgage interest, guaranteed loan programs from WWII forward, etc.

But nothing forced the banks to make these loans. They did so because they could and because they thought they would make money on it. And they did, for a while.

Government had a role in it both from an enabler standpoint, and from a failure to regulate standpoint. But no one held a gun to the bank's heads. They did this to themselves.

Bill Clinton's drive to increase homeownership went way too far - BusinessWeek

And Jimmy Carter. From the Wall Street Journal
America has a long and undistinguished history of populist politicians stacking the cards against lenders and in favor of risky homeownership. Proving that good intentions are no guarantee of good policy, President Jimmy Carter's 1977 Community Reinvestment Act, which required banks to make loans to low-income people, was just another legislative leg-up for high-risk borrowers. If socially laudable but economically reckless laws cause entirely predictable problems for lenders, don't be surprised if taxpayers have to bail them out.

No one listened to the warning.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
That's a completely inaccurate statement of what the CRA did, and didn't do. It prohibited banks from discriminating in loan making by preventing them from making a loan to individual A with credit score 700 who lived in "nice' neighborhood X, and denying a loan to individual B with an indentical credit score who lived in "bad" neighborhood Y.

I repeat - NO ONE held a gun to the banks' heads. A lot of right wing mythology around the CRA that isn't correct.
 
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